Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
-
Bernard Woolley
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:06 pm
- Location: Earth
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Just thinking, and forgive me if you’ve covered this, but if the RN has escort carriers in service, then there might be a role for the Short Seamew. Coastal Command might also use it.
“Frankly, I had enjoyed the war… and why do people want peace if the war is so much fun?” - Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
More than alright, Bernard.
As it happens, I have 'covered' the Seamew, but not in a piece yet published anywhere. The idea of a second-class ASW aircraft for 1950/51 amid the Korean War rearmament and preparation for a much larger war is naturally intriguing, and my next Korean War article (partly written, but wholly fleshed out/structured, if that makes sense) touches upon the procurement of the Short Seamew as a reserve carrier-borne ASW plane for what was still laid up at that point. Several hundred were procured for the RNVR, both carrier-borne for the FAA and land based for the RNAS.
What happened was that a Third World War didn't come during the 1950s/1957 Year of Maximum Danger (although to be 'fair', things came mighty close in 1956!).
The Korean War era planes, such as the fronline Gannet and the reserve Seamew, were then replaced in the late 1950s and early 1960s by a combination of four new aircraft - the Armstrong-Whitworth Albion twin turboprop MPA, the Short Sydney ASW jet flying boat, the Fairey Rotodyne and the Blackburn Bermuda. The last was a twin 4000shp turboprop carrier based ASW plane that entered service without too much fanfare at the end of 1961.
In the main in the 1960s, the RN ASW role was largely taken up by the Rotodyne and helicopters, as these could operate off much smaller vessels than carriers. The Andrew had also shed its WW2 construction light fleets in the late 1950s to save money for the very expensive fleet carrier programme, including the nuclear powered Ark Royals, and the remaining Illustrious class ships still around in 1960 were gone by 1964/65 through a combination of that and general age. The Bermuda was then deployed in small numbers on the fleet carriers - the 1940s Maltas, the 1950s Audacious class and the Ark Royals - whilst the Rotodyne could be operated off destroyers, cruisers and the new construction large frigates as well as the carriers. So the poor old Blackburn Bermuda never really got a chance to fully shine during the 1960s.
From 1964 or so, both the USN and RN looked upon the Soviet and other submarine threats, the issue of block obsolescence of much of the wartime construction that had served them well since the Last War, and that there would be a very big gap coming in the early 1970s when the Essex class CVSs went bye-bye; the British also were starting to miss having smaller carriers about, and were looking at various solutions, including 'Escort Cruisers' and some form of Light Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft Carrier or CVSL. Both navies also had quite a lot of stars in their eyes about the potential of the P.1154 Harrier and other VSTOL. They agreed to pursue three joint programmes: one for a frigate, one for a light ASW carrier and one for an even lighter helicopter carrier.
The 'light ASW carrier' grew in size quite quickly in the joint design process from ~ 32,000t to just over 40,000t as more systems were added on, but ended up being quite capable in their own niche.
The helicopter carrier became the CVSE or the ASW Escort Carrier, which also grew from an initial idea of a ship around 15,000 - 16,000t to something a little bit smaller than the 1990s HMS Ocean. They can carry Harriers, but operating more than 4 pushes things a bit; they are ideally suited to helicopters and Rotodynes, as they lack the ski jump fitted on the CVSLs, as well as a lot of fuel and weapons storage.
The role of the CVSE is to sail alongside convoys and provide up to two dozen helos or Rotodynes, or very much a defensive mission, whereas the ASW CVLs have more of a hunter-killer role.
Where does this leave fixed wing ASW carrier planes as of 1975? In 2.5 categories.
1.) The firstline role, of the USN A/S-3s and the RN Fairey Swordfish is for a twin jet multirole ASW/ASuW plane deployed on the big decks, having taken over from the S-2s and the Bermudas in that respect. They are augmented by Rotodynes deployed on the carriers, and on the cruisers and battlecruisers which ride shotgun in carrier battle groups.
2.) The second line role is filled by Rotodynes and helicopters, but there are efforts to develop an VSTOL ASW aircraft which can operate freely off the CVLs and in a slightly more restricted fashion off the CVHEs. Squaring that circle is an interesting challenge.
2.5) Where have the 1960s generation of turboprop ASW carrier planes gone? Out to a farm in the country or the boneyard? Not quite. The actual fate of quite a few of them has been to be transferred to service on the four Floating Fortresses out in the Atlantic, where they can provide coverage and patrol over large areas. Given that each of these platforms were designed in the 1940s and 50s to operate up to 250 aircraft, some of the older planes are better suited to them.
As a final note, RAF Coastal Command hasn't existed here, what with the RNAS keeping that role and that of the FAA through the 1920s and 1930s; in the Second World War, this served as something of an operational advantage, as, unlike Coastal Command, the RNAS wasn't regarded as a slightly slow red-headed stepchild to be given hand-me-downs and odd socks.
As it happens, I have 'covered' the Seamew, but not in a piece yet published anywhere. The idea of a second-class ASW aircraft for 1950/51 amid the Korean War rearmament and preparation for a much larger war is naturally intriguing, and my next Korean War article (partly written, but wholly fleshed out/structured, if that makes sense) touches upon the procurement of the Short Seamew as a reserve carrier-borne ASW plane for what was still laid up at that point. Several hundred were procured for the RNVR, both carrier-borne for the FAA and land based for the RNAS.
What happened was that a Third World War didn't come during the 1950s/1957 Year of Maximum Danger (although to be 'fair', things came mighty close in 1956!).
The Korean War era planes, such as the fronline Gannet and the reserve Seamew, were then replaced in the late 1950s and early 1960s by a combination of four new aircraft - the Armstrong-Whitworth Albion twin turboprop MPA, the Short Sydney ASW jet flying boat, the Fairey Rotodyne and the Blackburn Bermuda. The last was a twin 4000shp turboprop carrier based ASW plane that entered service without too much fanfare at the end of 1961.
In the main in the 1960s, the RN ASW role was largely taken up by the Rotodyne and helicopters, as these could operate off much smaller vessels than carriers. The Andrew had also shed its WW2 construction light fleets in the late 1950s to save money for the very expensive fleet carrier programme, including the nuclear powered Ark Royals, and the remaining Illustrious class ships still around in 1960 were gone by 1964/65 through a combination of that and general age. The Bermuda was then deployed in small numbers on the fleet carriers - the 1940s Maltas, the 1950s Audacious class and the Ark Royals - whilst the Rotodyne could be operated off destroyers, cruisers and the new construction large frigates as well as the carriers. So the poor old Blackburn Bermuda never really got a chance to fully shine during the 1960s.
From 1964 or so, both the USN and RN looked upon the Soviet and other submarine threats, the issue of block obsolescence of much of the wartime construction that had served them well since the Last War, and that there would be a very big gap coming in the early 1970s when the Essex class CVSs went bye-bye; the British also were starting to miss having smaller carriers about, and were looking at various solutions, including 'Escort Cruisers' and some form of Light Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft Carrier or CVSL. Both navies also had quite a lot of stars in their eyes about the potential of the P.1154 Harrier and other VSTOL. They agreed to pursue three joint programmes: one for a frigate, one for a light ASW carrier and one for an even lighter helicopter carrier.
The 'light ASW carrier' grew in size quite quickly in the joint design process from ~ 32,000t to just over 40,000t as more systems were added on, but ended up being quite capable in their own niche.
The helicopter carrier became the CVSE or the ASW Escort Carrier, which also grew from an initial idea of a ship around 15,000 - 16,000t to something a little bit smaller than the 1990s HMS Ocean. They can carry Harriers, but operating more than 4 pushes things a bit; they are ideally suited to helicopters and Rotodynes, as they lack the ski jump fitted on the CVSLs, as well as a lot of fuel and weapons storage.
The role of the CVSE is to sail alongside convoys and provide up to two dozen helos or Rotodynes, or very much a defensive mission, whereas the ASW CVLs have more of a hunter-killer role.
Where does this leave fixed wing ASW carrier planes as of 1975? In 2.5 categories.
1.) The firstline role, of the USN A/S-3s and the RN Fairey Swordfish is for a twin jet multirole ASW/ASuW plane deployed on the big decks, having taken over from the S-2s and the Bermudas in that respect. They are augmented by Rotodynes deployed on the carriers, and on the cruisers and battlecruisers which ride shotgun in carrier battle groups.
2.) The second line role is filled by Rotodynes and helicopters, but there are efforts to develop an VSTOL ASW aircraft which can operate freely off the CVLs and in a slightly more restricted fashion off the CVHEs. Squaring that circle is an interesting challenge.
2.5) Where have the 1960s generation of turboprop ASW carrier planes gone? Out to a farm in the country or the boneyard? Not quite. The actual fate of quite a few of them has been to be transferred to service on the four Floating Fortresses out in the Atlantic, where they can provide coverage and patrol over large areas. Given that each of these platforms were designed in the 1940s and 50s to operate up to 250 aircraft, some of the older planes are better suited to them.
As a final note, RAF Coastal Command hasn't existed here, what with the RNAS keeping that role and that of the FAA through the 1920s and 1930s; in the Second World War, this served as something of an operational advantage, as, unlike Coastal Command, the RNAS wasn't regarded as a slightly slow red-headed stepchild to be given hand-me-downs and odd socks.
Last edited by Simon Darkshade on Sat Nov 15, 2025 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Belushi TD
- Posts: 1586
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:20 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
I find it interesting that there are still guns on the Midway, United States, Malta, Audacious and Ark Royal classes, presumably for AAW?
Have aircraft not exceeded the abilities of the guns to be trained and reacted to, like what happened IOTL?
Or was this how they were built, and the guns were removed during refits and its just not mentioned here?
Belushi TD
Have aircraft not exceeded the abilities of the guns to be trained and reacted to, like what happened IOTL?
Or was this how they were built, and the guns were removed during refits and its just not mentioned here?
Belushi TD
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
The gun armaments on the British and American carriers reflected their configuration in 1960/61 (someone really needs to do some detailed updated orbats 
).
The last 5" guns on Midway were removed in 1977 in OTL, although many of the original 18 had been whittled down before then.
For the British ships, the Midway equivalent Maltas did have some of their 3.75" mounts removed in various 1960s refits, to be replaced by more modern missile systems, Legion Close-in Weapons Systems and other new lighter autocannnon. The same has happened to the Audacious class and the Ark Royals, but none of them have been completely shorn of their guns yet
(Incidentally, the historical Ark Royal similarly lost her guns in stages: https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal- ... -Royal.htm )
Why haven't they been completely removed yet? Three things - political interference, countering threats other than aircraft and missiles and numbers:
- The RN has been subject to some interesting degrees of political interference by Prime Minister Stanley Barton on some very particular aspects of design and operations - some admirals have whispered that it is their misfortune to cop two Churchills in one lifetime - and one of these is to do with gun armament. It turns out that he was talking to President Kennedy during one of his trips to the White House, and they fell into considerable agreement that it was worth retaining them, if but to reserve space for the type of future rapid fire guns or combined gun-missile mounts that were then being developed.
- As well as aircraft, missiles and politicians, there are other dangers in this world for ships of all sizes, ranging from extremely large ones that swim around in the Pacific and have attacked Tokyo and Shanghai and sunk an Imperial Chinese battleship, to others which might not be quite so large or formidable, but which nevertheless can cause significant damage. Having the ability to engage and drive off nasties like these at distances of 25,000 to 35,000 yards cheaply and without cracking open/taking away from their wartime armament is not seen as altogether a bad thing
- Numbers: The following explanation is provided by Kevin Malone from The Office
"Big ship change take time. Ship take time in yard = Ship not able to go out and play, or cover other ship which come back home from play. Not long ago, many ship go out and play far away in place called Viet Nam. Big play. Long time. Many ship only get short time in port. Now, that play time over, but ship still need go all over. Navy plan big ship change party. Call it SLEP. It let them make big changes, plus make old ship seem like not so old any more. First Langley, then United States class ships and other Enterprises. Navy want long term have 24 carriers able go out and play; for now, put up with 20. Just now, not have 20 yet - have 19, and some them be old Midways which can't play so good."
Hopefully that makes sense, but the gist of it is that serious yard times where *some* gun mounts get taken off and replaced with extended decks or new weapons is a can that has been kicked down the road throughout the 1960s with Vietnam, and now is finally starting to get moving. The idea of trying to get (the DE version of, which would be a tad larger) some sort of CVV, or conventionally powered 'medium' carrier is at the least being looked at, as one of several proposals.
(Simon waits for someone to notice that the USN has an Asiatic Fleet and a Mediterranean Fleet in addition to the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, or to notice the other hidden Easter eggs )
). The last 5" guns on Midway were removed in 1977 in OTL, although many of the original 18 had been whittled down before then.
For the British ships, the Midway equivalent Maltas did have some of their 3.75" mounts removed in various 1960s refits, to be replaced by more modern missile systems, Legion Close-in Weapons Systems and other new lighter autocannnon. The same has happened to the Audacious class and the Ark Royals, but none of them have been completely shorn of their guns yet
(Incidentally, the historical Ark Royal similarly lost her guns in stages: https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal- ... -Royal.htm )
Why haven't they been completely removed yet? Three things - political interference, countering threats other than aircraft and missiles and numbers:
- The RN has been subject to some interesting degrees of political interference by Prime Minister Stanley Barton on some very particular aspects of design and operations - some admirals have whispered that it is their misfortune to cop two Churchills in one lifetime - and one of these is to do with gun armament. It turns out that he was talking to President Kennedy during one of his trips to the White House, and they fell into considerable agreement that it was worth retaining them, if but to reserve space for the type of future rapid fire guns or combined gun-missile mounts that were then being developed.
- As well as aircraft, missiles and politicians, there are other dangers in this world for ships of all sizes, ranging from extremely large ones that swim around in the Pacific and have attacked Tokyo and Shanghai and sunk an Imperial Chinese battleship, to others which might not be quite so large or formidable, but which nevertheless can cause significant damage. Having the ability to engage and drive off nasties like these at distances of 25,000 to 35,000 yards cheaply and without cracking open/taking away from their wartime armament is not seen as altogether a bad thing
- Numbers: The following explanation is provided by Kevin Malone from The Office
"Big ship change take time. Ship take time in yard = Ship not able to go out and play, or cover other ship which come back home from play. Not long ago, many ship go out and play far away in place called Viet Nam. Big play. Long time. Many ship only get short time in port. Now, that play time over, but ship still need go all over. Navy plan big ship change party. Call it SLEP. It let them make big changes, plus make old ship seem like not so old any more. First Langley, then United States class ships and other Enterprises. Navy want long term have 24 carriers able go out and play; for now, put up with 20. Just now, not have 20 yet - have 19, and some them be old Midways which can't play so good."
Hopefully that makes sense, but the gist of it is that serious yard times where *some* gun mounts get taken off and replaced with extended decks or new weapons is a can that has been kicked down the road throughout the 1960s with Vietnam, and now is finally starting to get moving. The idea of trying to get (the DE version of, which would be a tad larger) some sort of CVV, or conventionally powered 'medium' carrier is at the least being looked at, as one of several proposals.
(Simon waits for someone to notice that the USN has an Asiatic Fleet and a Mediterranean Fleet in addition to the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, or to notice the other hidden Easter eggs
)-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Looking ahead to 1976:
- The NYC Olympics will be rather larger than those of Montreal in scope, scale and significance, with a couple of breakout demonstration sports and plentiful new Olympic heroes
- Whilst the British Isles will have a nicely warm summer, it won’t be quite as hot as at points in our 1976, and not dry in any sense due to scheduling of rain under new weather control arrangements; there will be an uptake in air conditioning as a result of what does occur. It goes without saying that there will be no need for a Minister of Drought
- An earthquake in China will lead to some consequences, as will one in Central America and the Philippines
- Plenty of developments in space travel and some discoveries very far out
- Troubles in the Congo
- Some US railway consolidation
- Plenty of events around the US Bicentennial, including a 'tall ships' display
- Attempts at population control in some countries and the inverse elsewhere
- More troubling rumbles in Ireland
- US and British elections; in the former case, the major Democratic candidates are RFK, James Carter and Henry Jackson
- Expansion of supersonic air routes, and the first of the next generation of jets
- Troubles in the Lebanon, and Syria and Iraq start dabbling
- Quite a few new films (including Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis) and television series (including one about masters of some sort of universe), and the first few noteworthy computer games
- Something different in Uruguay
- Rather different UEFA European Football/Soccer Championships
- Some advances in arcane replicators and theoretical work on direct neural interfaces
- Some sinister developments in Italy and Spain, and ballistic developments in the former
- A few terrorist incidents and responses
- New underground trains in a few places, including the Antipodes, some major rail works in London, and a heady combination of Swissmetro and Transrapid Monorail. To cap off the rail developments, there will be a bit of a review of steam vs electric vs diesel
- Establishment of the precursor to Costco
- A different result of an American Legion convention
- The Son of Sam
- Another intriguing year of Test Cricket, with the top echelon of the Windies, Australia, England, South Africa and India being disrupted by an extraordinary run of good form by the U.S. cricket team
- Big Ben gets stuck
- Different developments regarding the regulation of tobacco advertising in a different health world, along with declining rates of smoking
- A MiG-25 defects
- The first Canada Cup
- Argentina swings towards a bit more autocracy, with consequences
- Discovery of several new species, including apes
- The highest economic growth of the decade for a few states
- An absence of no-fault divorce in the Western world
- Food trends head in a different way to both nouvelle cuisine and hyper-processed/fast foods. There will be some interesting developments in American food in its traditional sense (not the various hybrid types, such as the Frenchified stuff of Julia Child or the mainstreaming of Italian dishes), and counterparts in Britain and in Europe. Molecular gastronomy gets a start
- Japan and the USSR come to terms
- A strike in Britain results in novel action
- Wales wins the Grand Slam
- The House of Commons rejects a bill banning corporal punishment in schools
- Some moves on the law of the sea
- Refurbishment of the chain of twelve naval and four army Maunsell Forts in the Thames Estuary
- An incident in Djibouti
- Discovery of exoplanets in the Alpha Centauri system
- Continuation of the fusion revolution
- An asteroid is intercepted in a test
- The Pragger Wagger gets a destroyer
- Sal Mineo fights off a mugger
- A new Tolkien novel
- Domestication of the zebra
- Seat belts and other car safety measures
- French riots against cheap foreign wine
- Changes on the Politburo, including more allies of the General Secretary
- Biafra heats up again
- A meteor shower over China has some interesting effects
- Permanent ski resorts open in Scotland and Wales
- Advances in cryogenic sleep
- First sighting of the Cornish Owlman
- Opening of Windows on the World
- The US begins a substantive armament programme
- British Commonwealth cooperation with CERN
- Che Guevara strikes again
- Jim Jones arrested for heresy
- With continued peace in South Vietnam, the US garrison is reduced slightly
- An American balloonist is rescued by a Soviet freighter after crashing
- A drunk Soviet border guard shoots 6 Estonians
- Some Mexican Communists make a very big mistake
- A boy goes missing and Elvis is on the case
- The 1500th anniversary of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire gets marked by historians
- A wedding between current and former royals
- There will be a host of new helicopters, planes, trains, cars and military equipment
- A minor disease outbreak in the Ebola River valley is resolved quickly through the advice of Tarzan
- Establishment of the Nuclear Emergency Search Team
- More craziness from the Central African Empire
- Britain won't be going to the IMF for a loan
- The NYC Olympics will be rather larger than those of Montreal in scope, scale and significance, with a couple of breakout demonstration sports and plentiful new Olympic heroes
- Whilst the British Isles will have a nicely warm summer, it won’t be quite as hot as at points in our 1976, and not dry in any sense due to scheduling of rain under new weather control arrangements; there will be an uptake in air conditioning as a result of what does occur. It goes without saying that there will be no need for a Minister of Drought
- An earthquake in China will lead to some consequences, as will one in Central America and the Philippines
- Plenty of developments in space travel and some discoveries very far out
- Troubles in the Congo
- Some US railway consolidation
- Plenty of events around the US Bicentennial, including a 'tall ships' display
- Attempts at population control in some countries and the inverse elsewhere
- More troubling rumbles in Ireland
- US and British elections; in the former case, the major Democratic candidates are RFK, James Carter and Henry Jackson
- Expansion of supersonic air routes, and the first of the next generation of jets
- Troubles in the Lebanon, and Syria and Iraq start dabbling
- Quite a few new films (including Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis) and television series (including one about masters of some sort of universe), and the first few noteworthy computer games
- Something different in Uruguay
- Rather different UEFA European Football/Soccer Championships
- Some advances in arcane replicators and theoretical work on direct neural interfaces
- Some sinister developments in Italy and Spain, and ballistic developments in the former
- A few terrorist incidents and responses
- New underground trains in a few places, including the Antipodes, some major rail works in London, and a heady combination of Swissmetro and Transrapid Monorail. To cap off the rail developments, there will be a bit of a review of steam vs electric vs diesel
- Establishment of the precursor to Costco
- A different result of an American Legion convention
- The Son of Sam
- Another intriguing year of Test Cricket, with the top echelon of the Windies, Australia, England, South Africa and India being disrupted by an extraordinary run of good form by the U.S. cricket team
- Big Ben gets stuck
- Different developments regarding the regulation of tobacco advertising in a different health world, along with declining rates of smoking
- A MiG-25 defects
- The first Canada Cup
- Argentina swings towards a bit more autocracy, with consequences
- Discovery of several new species, including apes
- The highest economic growth of the decade for a few states
- An absence of no-fault divorce in the Western world
- Food trends head in a different way to both nouvelle cuisine and hyper-processed/fast foods. There will be some interesting developments in American food in its traditional sense (not the various hybrid types, such as the Frenchified stuff of Julia Child or the mainstreaming of Italian dishes), and counterparts in Britain and in Europe. Molecular gastronomy gets a start
- Japan and the USSR come to terms
- A strike in Britain results in novel action
- Wales wins the Grand Slam
- The House of Commons rejects a bill banning corporal punishment in schools
- Some moves on the law of the sea
- Refurbishment of the chain of twelve naval and four army Maunsell Forts in the Thames Estuary
- An incident in Djibouti
- Discovery of exoplanets in the Alpha Centauri system
- Continuation of the fusion revolution
- An asteroid is intercepted in a test
- The Pragger Wagger gets a destroyer
- Sal Mineo fights off a mugger
- A new Tolkien novel
- Domestication of the zebra
- Seat belts and other car safety measures
- French riots against cheap foreign wine
- Changes on the Politburo, including more allies of the General Secretary
- Biafra heats up again
- A meteor shower over China has some interesting effects
- Permanent ski resorts open in Scotland and Wales
- Advances in cryogenic sleep
- First sighting of the Cornish Owlman
- Opening of Windows on the World
- The US begins a substantive armament programme
- British Commonwealth cooperation with CERN
- Che Guevara strikes again
- Jim Jones arrested for heresy
- With continued peace in South Vietnam, the US garrison is reduced slightly
- An American balloonist is rescued by a Soviet freighter after crashing
- A drunk Soviet border guard shoots 6 Estonians
- Some Mexican Communists make a very big mistake
- A boy goes missing and Elvis is on the case
- The 1500th anniversary of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire gets marked by historians
- A wedding between current and former royals
- There will be a host of new helicopters, planes, trains, cars and military equipment
- A minor disease outbreak in the Ebola River valley is resolved quickly through the advice of Tarzan
- Establishment of the Nuclear Emergency Search Team
- More craziness from the Central African Empire
- Britain won't be going to the IMF for a loan
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
US Budget 1975
GDP: $3,282,717,168,931
Defense: $334,837,151,230.96 (10.2%)
Medicare and Health: $98,481,515,067.93 (3%)
Social Security: 32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Education: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Veterans Affairs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Space: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Energy: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Interest: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Income Security: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
Transport: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
General Government: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
International Affairs: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Interior, Natural Resources and Environment: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Agriculture: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Science and Technology: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Housing and Urban Development: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Commerce: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Labor: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Justice: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Security: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Magic: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Other: $6,565,434,337.86 (0.2%)
Total: $809,189,782,141.49 (24.65% of GDP)
Revenue
Income Tax: $328,271,716,893.1 (10%)
Social Security/Payroll: $196,963,030,135.86 (6%)
Corporate Tax: $147,722,272,601.9 (4.5%)
Federal Sales Tax: $82,067,929,223.27 (2.5%)
Capital Gains Tax: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Excise: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Tariffs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Estate Taxes: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Customs Duties: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Total: $869,920,049,766.72 (26.5%)
Other Receipts: $62,371,626,209.69 (1.9%)
Total Revenue: $932,291,675,976.41
Surplus: $123,101,893,834.92
(Transfer to the United States Sovereign Wealth Fund: $23 billion)
US National Debt: $791 billion (23.95% vs 24.5%)
Defense: The Reagan Administration, should it be successful in reelection as currently projected, plans to continue steady increases to the general National Defense budget to facilitate increased pay for servicemen and servicewomen; procurement of the next generation of weapons systems and continued R&D into the one afterwards; construction of certain new bases and improvement of existing facilities; and improved maintenance budgets for existing weapons stocks. There are concurrent hopes that defense expenditures can gradually shrink as an overall portion of national wealth as the post-Vietnam period continues to emerge.
Medicare and Health: Whilst were proposals for specific taxes to cover the Universal Health Care scheme known as Medicare, these were abandoned in favour of its operational cost being covered out of general taxation in the last term of the Kennedy Administration. The first few years have seen some teething problems for the system, but it is seen as robust enough by most Americans; in addition to the universal public health care system, there remains the capacity to purchase private health insurance for additional medical services, choice of doctors and other individual benefits, with the hybrid public/private system being accepted by the Republican Party at this time.
Social Security: 62,174,960 million Americans are aged over 65 and receive Social Security benefits of $250 per month, which is covered entirely from Social Security payroll taxation, with the ~$10.438 billion difference being rolled over into the trust fund. Additional budgetary allocation for Social Security purposes goes towards the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund under SSDI and the SSI program. (Note that whilst the amount of maximum monthly benefit is broadly analogous to the historical 1975 rate of $207, the value of the US dollar is sufficiently stronger such that it is the equivalent of ~ $400 in historical Earthly value)
Education: A creation of the Roosevelt Administration in 1906, the Federal Department of Education has its role in funding college education for the 24 million tertiary students across the United States, with elementary and secondary education being covered by state and local government.
Veteran's Affairs: The Department of Veterans Affairs is responsible for payments to the 1.2 million surviving veterans of the Great War, the 19 million surviving veterans of the Second World War, the 5.62 million veterans of the Korean War and now the 6.4 million veterans of the Vietnam War. Spending is due to rise with an addition $200 monthly pension to be paid to First World War veterans from 1975, whilst standard rates are fixed on three income bands, with further coverage for widows and orphans.
Space: NASA and the US Space Force are covered by this budgetary spending, with the latter also receiving certain operational funding from the Other line of National Defense spending; it is intended for the USSF to be funded by general defense spending by 1979, freeing up general space funding for NASA's ever-expanding budget.
Energy: The Atomic Energy Commission takes up a large part of Energy funding, along with National Laboratories, the Tennessee Valley Authority and other related entities. The high cost of the fusion revolution is due to see continued spending in this area for some time to come, but there is a general goal of seeing the private sector take up the burden in the future.
Interest: The current rate of interest for the National Debt is set to drop with further reduction in the general principal and with economic growth shrinking the value of the remainder as a percentage of national wealth.
Income Security: This budget line covers unemployment benefits (with the current unemployment rate of 1.8% of the labour force of 179 million, just over 3.2 million are in receipt of $42 per week of Federal Supplementary Benefit in addition to what is provided by the states), child benefits for some of the 87 million Americans under 18, and assorted other payments.
Transport: The construction of the US Interstate Highway System is largely complete, but sections of the concurrent US Interstate Railways programme are still being finished, whilst the Coast Guard and the U.S. Transport Security Police are also administered under the agency.
General Government: This budget line covers the majority of the Federal Civil Service, along with certain lines which cover part of the $25 billion intelligence budget (equivalent to $240 billion in 2025, and covering $9 billion/$86.4 billion for CIA, $5 billion/$48 billion for NSA, $5 billion/$48 billion for FBI counterintelligence and the remainder for assorted other agencies), and the Treasury.
International Affairs: This covers not only the Department of State's Foreign Service and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, but the Freedom Corps, the US Information Agency, Radio Free Europe and USAIDs budget of $6.85 billion (South Vietnam receiving $800 million in 1975, followed by $400 million for Cambodia and South Laos, $250 million for Thailand, Malaya, Taiwan and Korea, $200 million for Israel, Portugal, the Philippines and the Congo, $150 million for Tibet and India, $125 million for South Africa, Persia, Rhodesia and Bulgaria, $100 million for Hong Kong, Indonesia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Jordan, Arabia, Syria and Yugoslavia, $75 million for Newfoundland, Albania, Morocco, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Bolivia, $50 million for Yemen, Madagascar, Kenya, Tanganyika, Senegambia, Chad, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, Yucatan, Los Altos, Guatemala, the West Indies Federation, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, Paraguay, Aranguay, Uruguay, Finland, Ruritania and Austria-Hungary). Additional US aid is provided through the National Defense Budget and other means.
Interior: The US Department of the Interior is responsible for the nation's dams, the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the EPA and assorted other institutions.
Agriculture: This budget line covers farm aid and subsidies through relevant farm bills, food stamp programmes, food aid and agricultural and foodstuff regulations.
Science and Technology: This new agency, under the auspices of the Department of Commerce, provides access to investment capital for emergent technological companies, funds research and takes other measures to preserve America's perceived edge in high technology.
Housing and Urban Development: Slum clearance and urban regeneration has been a strong focus of all administrations since the War, and this is set to continue into the future. Currently headed by Martin Luther King.
Security: The Department of Security covers the Federal Civil Defense Administration, border protection, the Secret Service, the even more clandestine Bureau of National Security and assorted other men in black suits.
Commerce, Labor and Justice: These cover the requisite Departments, including the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in the latter case.
Appendix 1
Defense Budget Breakdown:
USAF: $108,329,666,574.72 (3.3%)
USN: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
US Army: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
Other: $22,979,020,182.517 (0.7%)
US Army Totals
Personnel: $35,617,481,282.9 (35%)
Operations and Maintenance: $26,458,700,381.58 (26%)
Procurement: $24,423,415,736.84 (24%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
USAF Totals
Personnel: $28,165,713,309.43 (28%)
Operations and Maintenance: $32,498,899,972.42 (28%)
Procurement: $34,665,493,303.91 (32%)
R&D: $13,541,208,321.84 (12.5%)
Other: $1,624,944,998.62 (1.5%)
USN Totals
Personnel: $29,511,627,348.69 (29%)
Operations and Maintenance: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
Procurement: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
GDP: $3,282,717,168,931
Defense: $334,837,151,230.96 (10.2%)
Medicare and Health: $98,481,515,067.93 (3%)
Social Security: 32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Education: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Veterans Affairs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Space: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Energy: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Interest: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Income Security: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
Transport: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
General Government: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
International Affairs: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Interior, Natural Resources and Environment: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Agriculture: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Science and Technology: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Housing and Urban Development: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Commerce: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Labor: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Justice: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Security: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Magic: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Other: $6,565,434,337.86 (0.2%)
Total: $809,189,782,141.49 (24.65% of GDP)
Revenue
Income Tax: $328,271,716,893.1 (10%)
Social Security/Payroll: $196,963,030,135.86 (6%)
Corporate Tax: $147,722,272,601.9 (4.5%)
Federal Sales Tax: $82,067,929,223.27 (2.5%)
Capital Gains Tax: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Excise: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Tariffs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Estate Taxes: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Customs Duties: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Total: $869,920,049,766.72 (26.5%)
Other Receipts: $62,371,626,209.69 (1.9%)
Total Revenue: $932,291,675,976.41
Surplus: $123,101,893,834.92
(Transfer to the United States Sovereign Wealth Fund: $23 billion)
US National Debt: $791 billion (23.95% vs 24.5%)
Defense: The Reagan Administration, should it be successful in reelection as currently projected, plans to continue steady increases to the general National Defense budget to facilitate increased pay for servicemen and servicewomen; procurement of the next generation of weapons systems and continued R&D into the one afterwards; construction of certain new bases and improvement of existing facilities; and improved maintenance budgets for existing weapons stocks. There are concurrent hopes that defense expenditures can gradually shrink as an overall portion of national wealth as the post-Vietnam period continues to emerge.
Medicare and Health: Whilst were proposals for specific taxes to cover the Universal Health Care scheme known as Medicare, these were abandoned in favour of its operational cost being covered out of general taxation in the last term of the Kennedy Administration. The first few years have seen some teething problems for the system, but it is seen as robust enough by most Americans; in addition to the universal public health care system, there remains the capacity to purchase private health insurance for additional medical services, choice of doctors and other individual benefits, with the hybrid public/private system being accepted by the Republican Party at this time.
Social Security: 62,174,960 million Americans are aged over 65 and receive Social Security benefits of $250 per month, which is covered entirely from Social Security payroll taxation, with the ~$10.438 billion difference being rolled over into the trust fund. Additional budgetary allocation for Social Security purposes goes towards the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund under SSDI and the SSI program. (Note that whilst the amount of maximum monthly benefit is broadly analogous to the historical 1975 rate of $207, the value of the US dollar is sufficiently stronger such that it is the equivalent of ~ $400 in historical Earthly value)
Education: A creation of the Roosevelt Administration in 1906, the Federal Department of Education has its role in funding college education for the 24 million tertiary students across the United States, with elementary and secondary education being covered by state and local government.
Veteran's Affairs: The Department of Veterans Affairs is responsible for payments to the 1.2 million surviving veterans of the Great War, the 19 million surviving veterans of the Second World War, the 5.62 million veterans of the Korean War and now the 6.4 million veterans of the Vietnam War. Spending is due to rise with an addition $200 monthly pension to be paid to First World War veterans from 1975, whilst standard rates are fixed on three income bands, with further coverage for widows and orphans.
Space: NASA and the US Space Force are covered by this budgetary spending, with the latter also receiving certain operational funding from the Other line of National Defense spending; it is intended for the USSF to be funded by general defense spending by 1979, freeing up general space funding for NASA's ever-expanding budget.
Energy: The Atomic Energy Commission takes up a large part of Energy funding, along with National Laboratories, the Tennessee Valley Authority and other related entities. The high cost of the fusion revolution is due to see continued spending in this area for some time to come, but there is a general goal of seeing the private sector take up the burden in the future.
Interest: The current rate of interest for the National Debt is set to drop with further reduction in the general principal and with economic growth shrinking the value of the remainder as a percentage of national wealth.
Income Security: This budget line covers unemployment benefits (with the current unemployment rate of 1.8% of the labour force of 179 million, just over 3.2 million are in receipt of $42 per week of Federal Supplementary Benefit in addition to what is provided by the states), child benefits for some of the 87 million Americans under 18, and assorted other payments.
Transport: The construction of the US Interstate Highway System is largely complete, but sections of the concurrent US Interstate Railways programme are still being finished, whilst the Coast Guard and the U.S. Transport Security Police are also administered under the agency.
General Government: This budget line covers the majority of the Federal Civil Service, along with certain lines which cover part of the $25 billion intelligence budget (equivalent to $240 billion in 2025, and covering $9 billion/$86.4 billion for CIA, $5 billion/$48 billion for NSA, $5 billion/$48 billion for FBI counterintelligence and the remainder for assorted other agencies), and the Treasury.
International Affairs: This covers not only the Department of State's Foreign Service and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, but the Freedom Corps, the US Information Agency, Radio Free Europe and USAIDs budget of $6.85 billion (South Vietnam receiving $800 million in 1975, followed by $400 million for Cambodia and South Laos, $250 million for Thailand, Malaya, Taiwan and Korea, $200 million for Israel, Portugal, the Philippines and the Congo, $150 million for Tibet and India, $125 million for South Africa, Persia, Rhodesia and Bulgaria, $100 million for Hong Kong, Indonesia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Jordan, Arabia, Syria and Yugoslavia, $75 million for Newfoundland, Albania, Morocco, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Bolivia, $50 million for Yemen, Madagascar, Kenya, Tanganyika, Senegambia, Chad, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, Yucatan, Los Altos, Guatemala, the West Indies Federation, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, Paraguay, Aranguay, Uruguay, Finland, Ruritania and Austria-Hungary). Additional US aid is provided through the National Defense Budget and other means.
Interior: The US Department of the Interior is responsible for the nation's dams, the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the EPA and assorted other institutions.
Agriculture: This budget line covers farm aid and subsidies through relevant farm bills, food stamp programmes, food aid and agricultural and foodstuff regulations.
Science and Technology: This new agency, under the auspices of the Department of Commerce, provides access to investment capital for emergent technological companies, funds research and takes other measures to preserve America's perceived edge in high technology.
Housing and Urban Development: Slum clearance and urban regeneration has been a strong focus of all administrations since the War, and this is set to continue into the future. Currently headed by Martin Luther King.
Security: The Department of Security covers the Federal Civil Defense Administration, border protection, the Secret Service, the even more clandestine Bureau of National Security and assorted other men in black suits.
Commerce, Labor and Justice: These cover the requisite Departments, including the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in the latter case.
Appendix 1
Defense Budget Breakdown:
USAF: $108,329,666,574.72 (3.3%)
USN: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
US Army: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
Other: $22,979,020,182.517 (0.7%)
US Army Totals
Personnel: $35,617,481,282.9 (35%)
Operations and Maintenance: $26,458,700,381.58 (26%)
Procurement: $24,423,415,736.84 (24%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
USAF Totals
Personnel: $28,165,713,309.43 (28%)
Operations and Maintenance: $32,498,899,972.42 (28%)
Procurement: $34,665,493,303.91 (32%)
R&D: $13,541,208,321.84 (12.5%)
Other: $1,624,944,998.62 (1.5%)
USN Totals
Personnel: $29,511,627,348.69 (29%)
Operations and Maintenance: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
Procurement: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
Last edited by Simon Darkshade on Sat Nov 29, 2025 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
How the US Army Ends Up Operating the Harrier (1975)
From a discussion elsewhere:
"The Stallion/Jolly Green Giant role came down to the precise definition of what was an Army mission and what was an Air Force one; the important word within that definition was 'combat zone'. The Army was to operate 'tactical transport within the combat zone', 'aeromedical casualty evacuation within the combat zone' and 'tactical aerial reconnaissance in the combat zone for the purposes of locating, verifying and evaluating targets', to use three terms from the modified, but recognisable DE equivalent to the Pace-Finletter MOU of 1952.
This was then followed by the Fort Hood Agreement, which saw most helo operations handpassed to the Army and certain concessions made to the Air Force.
How then the Harrier?
VTOL, and the USAF's reluctance towards it. With multiple different, important, and eye-wateringly expensive aircraft programmes going in the 1960s, the Air Force was reticent to fund a whole new type when it has the shiny new Curtiss-Wright F-109 VSTOL fighter under development for its skyship aerocarriers (remember those last two words for later) and several attack aircraft. The Army could generally be ameliorated with a simple enough gesture of providing battlefield VTOL close air support capacity.
Enter the real enemy of the USAF in this mini-drama - the USN and their wicked, crayon-eating sidekick, the USMC. They had the Harrier in service with the Marines, and were making tentative offers of some form of agreement, in order to gain the support of the US Army against the Air Force over the aerocarrier issue. That had stuck in the Navy's craw as an affront to their carriers and their skyships, to the extent that they were prepared to put aside their traditional antipathy towards the Army in order to get one over on the upstarts of the Air Force.
However, that traditional antipathy wasn't simply projected inland in a figurative vituperative operational maneuver from the sea, as it were, but was felt back the same way from the Army. A surprising, grudging, yet non unpredictable outcome to the convoluted mess that is interservice relations in the US military of Dark Earth.
(Relations haven't quite hit the pre WW2 Japanese level of attempting to assassinate high ranking officers, as that could lead to some awkward moments at bridge evenings and difficult questions from their wives about Christmas card lists, existing at the level of boardroom politics and annual lower level childish prank stories on April 1st, such as fake rumours of the Navy going dry being leaked to the media, mass deliveries of new flavoured crayons to Marine bases and cocktail glasses to USAF bases, and diversion of all Army shipments of chipped beef for use in life-vests.)
Long story short, they are all rivals for top spot and top dollar, and thus are constantly jockeying to get one over on the 'Jones's.'
Thus, the Army got the Harrier, and the US Armed Forces remain acting like dogs who live on the same street.
Except for the Coast Guard, who is made to sit out in the corridor with a comic and birthday cake flavoured ice cream while the grown-ups talk. "
From a discussion elsewhere:
"The Stallion/Jolly Green Giant role came down to the precise definition of what was an Army mission and what was an Air Force one; the important word within that definition was 'combat zone'. The Army was to operate 'tactical transport within the combat zone', 'aeromedical casualty evacuation within the combat zone' and 'tactical aerial reconnaissance in the combat zone for the purposes of locating, verifying and evaluating targets', to use three terms from the modified, but recognisable DE equivalent to the Pace-Finletter MOU of 1952.
This was then followed by the Fort Hood Agreement, which saw most helo operations handpassed to the Army and certain concessions made to the Air Force.
How then the Harrier?
VTOL, and the USAF's reluctance towards it. With multiple different, important, and eye-wateringly expensive aircraft programmes going in the 1960s, the Air Force was reticent to fund a whole new type when it has the shiny new Curtiss-Wright F-109 VSTOL fighter under development for its skyship aerocarriers (remember those last two words for later) and several attack aircraft. The Army could generally be ameliorated with a simple enough gesture of providing battlefield VTOL close air support capacity.
Enter the real enemy of the USAF in this mini-drama - the USN and their wicked, crayon-eating sidekick, the USMC. They had the Harrier in service with the Marines, and were making tentative offers of some form of agreement, in order to gain the support of the US Army against the Air Force over the aerocarrier issue. That had stuck in the Navy's craw as an affront to their carriers and their skyships, to the extent that they were prepared to put aside their traditional antipathy towards the Army in order to get one over on the upstarts of the Air Force.
However, that traditional antipathy wasn't simply projected inland in a figurative vituperative operational maneuver from the sea, as it were, but was felt back the same way from the Army. A surprising, grudging, yet non unpredictable outcome to the convoluted mess that is interservice relations in the US military of Dark Earth.
(Relations haven't quite hit the pre WW2 Japanese level of attempting to assassinate high ranking officers, as that could lead to some awkward moments at bridge evenings and difficult questions from their wives about Christmas card lists, existing at the level of boardroom politics and annual lower level childish prank stories on April 1st, such as fake rumours of the Navy going dry being leaked to the media, mass deliveries of new flavoured crayons to Marine bases and cocktail glasses to USAF bases, and diversion of all Army shipments of chipped beef for use in life-vests.)
Long story short, they are all rivals for top spot and top dollar, and thus are constantly jockeying to get one over on the 'Jones's.'
Thus, the Army got the Harrier, and the US Armed Forces remain acting like dogs who live on the same street.
Except for the Coast Guard, who is made to sit out in the corridor with a comic and birthday cake flavoured ice cream while the grown-ups talk. "
-
Rocket J Squrriel
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:23 pm
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
No matter the ATL some things stay the same. 
Westray: That this is some sort of coincidence. Because they don't really believe in coincidences. They've heard of them. They've just never seen one.
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
US Defence Procurement 1975
US Army Procurement 1975
Budget: $24,423,415,736.84
Spending: $24,390,392,350
Small Arms: $565,515,350
462,993 M16 battle rifles x $250 ($115,748,250)
196,924 M17 Colt Commando carbines x $200 ($39,384,800)
102,684 M1911 pistols x $100 ($10,268,400)
144,723 M78 SMGs x $150 ($21,708,450)
96,792 M25 automatic rifles x $375 ($36,297,000)
87,368 M249 LMGs x $625 ($54,605,000)
52,229 M60 GPMGs x $1250 ($65,286,250)
29,478 M2 HMGs x $2400 ($70,747,200)
24,369 M96 90mm Super Bazookas x $5000 ($121,845,000)
5925 Maxims x $5000 ($29,625,000)
Mortars: $72,880,000
3200 M224 60mm x $5000 (16)
2000 M255 90mm x $10,000 (20)
400 105mm Automatic x $25,000 (10)
400 M120 120mm x $36,000 (14.4)
120 M169 165mm x $54,000 (6.48)
60 M94 254mm SPM x $100,000 (6)
Artillery: $802,600,000
964 M125 x $100,000 (96.4)
440 M109 x $150,000 (66)
168 M110 x $200,000 (33.6)
64 M107 x $200,000 (12.8)
32 M123 x $250,000 (8)
216 M163 x $100,000 (21.6)
72 M249 x $125,000 (9)
24 M284 x $200,000 (4.8)
750 90mm M6 GP Infantry Guns x $96,000 (72)
250 105mm SVAT Guns x $150,000 (37.5)
1600 M125 125mm field guns x $72,000 (115.2)
800 M198 155mm howitzers x $120,000 (96)
320 M219 203mm howitzers x $160,000 (51.2)
476 M270 MRLS x $375,000 (178.5)
Tanks: $6,890,800,000
520 M124 Buford x $640,000 (332.8)
5300 M70 Marshall x $960,000 (5088)
1100 M76 Grant x $800,000 (880)
360 M120 Pershing x $1.5 million (540)
40 M236 Scott x $1.25 million (50)
Armoured Vehicles: $2,906,917,000
6887 M2 Bradley x $250,000 (1721.75)
3295 M113 APCs x $96,000 (316.32)
1983 M250 IMVs x $84,000 (162.572)
2139 Cadillac Gage M706 Commando AMCs x $75,000 160.425
1752 General Dynamics M754 LAV-25 x $125,000 219
960 M800 MAV x $350,000 336
Vehicles: $1310 million
35000 M809 5t truck x $10,000 (350)
8000 Mack M128 10t truck x $15,000 (120)
2000 Oshkosh M911 heavy trucks x $20,000 (40)
4000 Ford M656 10t 8x8 trucks x $25,000 (100)
40,000 HMCVs x $16,000 (640)
12000 M151 jeeps x $5,000 (60)
SSMs: $2262 million
32 Hercules LRBM x $24 million (768)
54 Puritan MRBM x $15 million (810)
96 Pershing SRBM x $4 million (384)
300 MGM-52 Lance TBM x $1 million (300)
SAMs: $908 million
2560 MIM-104 Patriot x $250,000 (640)
1200 MIM-72 Reaper x $90,000 (108)
2400 MIM-46 Mauler x $50,000 (120)
5000 Raytheon FIM-92 Stinger MANPADs x $8000 (40)
ABMs: $1000 million
400 Sprint II x $1 million
200 Spartan x $3 million
ATGMs: $340 million
25000 FGM-17 Viper x $4000 (100)
10000 FGM-77 Dragon x $12,000 (120)
5000 BGM-85 TOW x $24,000 (120)
Aircraft: $2,171,680,000
(160 Fixed Wing and 1762 Rotary Aircraft)
480 Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk x $800,000 (384)
250 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1 million (250)
240 AH-1 Super Cobra x $720,000 (172.8)
120 AH-56 Cheyenne x $960,000 (115.2)
240 AH-64 Apache x $1.2 million (288)
96 Hughes OH-6 x $600,000 (57.6)
72 Sikorsky CH-53 x $980,000 (70.56)
48 Sikorsky MH-54 x $1.1 million (52.8)
36 Boeing UH-62 x $1.2 million (43.2)
60 Bell V-15 x $1.5 million (90)
48 Hughes V-21 x $2 million (96)
72 Sikorsky V-24 Vertibirds x $2.5 million (180)
24 OV-1 Mohawks x $240,000 (5.76)
16 C-12 Hurons x $360,000 (5.76)
120 McDonnell-Douglas Harriers x $3 million (360)
Munitions: $5200 million
Small Arms Ammunition: $1800 million
Artillery Ammunition: $3400 million
USN 1975 Procurement
Budget: $28,493,985,026.32
Spending: $28,377,000,000
Ships total: $6287 million
1 CVN: $1750 million (1750/5)
1 BBGN: $2000 million (2000/5)
2 BCGN: 2 x $750 million (1500/4)
4 CGN: 4 x $500 million (2000/4)
8 Spruance class DLG: 8 x $200 million (1600/4)
12 Nimitz class DDG: 12 x $100 million (1200/3)
12 Fletcher class DD: 12 x $80 million (960/3)
12 OHP DEG: 12 x $50 million (600/3)
12 Knox class DE: 12 x $40 million (480/3)
6 SSN: 6 x $375 million (2250/4)
1975 Share: $3675 million
20 New London class corvettes: 20 x $15 million
24 Hawk class subchasers: 24 x $8 million
16 Pegasus class PHM: 16 x $5 million
$572 million
1 Tarawa class LHAN: 1 x $1600 million (1600/4)
3 x Coronado class LPDs: 3 x $250 million (750/3)
4 x Fort McHenry class LSDs: 4 x $125 million (500/2)
9 x LSTs: 9 x $100 million (900/3)
3 x LKAs: 3 x $75 million (225/3)
2 x LPAs: 3 x $75 million (225/3)
$1350 million
2 x Hiawatha class ADs: 2 x $120 million (240/3)
2 x Emory S. Land ASs: 2 x $120 million (240/3)
1 x Justice class AGP: $90 million (90/1)
3 x Cimarron class AOs: 3 x $160 million (480/3)
2 x AFS combat stores ship: 2 x $150 million (300/3)
2 x AOE fast combat support ships: 2 x $360 million(720/4)
$690 million
Aircraft: $11,890.4 million
(1620 Aircraft + 884 Rotary)
150 F-14 Tomcats x $10 million 1500
240 McDonnell-Douglas A-4 Skyhawk IIs x $4.25 million 1020
120 Northrop-Grumman A-6 Intruders x $7.5 million 900
120 A/S-3 Vikings x $7 million 840
328 F/A-18 Hornets x $6 million 1968
160 F-4 Super Phantoms x $4 million 640
200 McDonnell-Douglas Sea Harriers x $3.5 million 700
96 F/A-111M Vindicators x $12 million 1152
84 EA-6 Prowlers x $12 million 1008
50 E-2C Hawkeyes x $15 million 750
240 Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawks x $960,000 230.4
120 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1.25 million 150
120 Bell AH-1 Sea Cobras x $800,000 96
80 Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knights x $500,000 40
80 Sikorsky SH-3 Sea Kings x $480,000 38.4
80 Hughes SH-6 Sea Defenders x $450,000 36
64 Kaman SH-2 Seasprites x $400,000 25.6
60 Bell V-15 x $1 million 60
40 Bell V-22 VTOL x $1.6 million 64
24 P-10 Triton x $10 million
12 P-12 Sea Lord x $12 million
36 P-15 Catalina x $8 million
Missiles: $3352 million
AIMs: $500 million
400 AIM-54 x $250,000 100
1600 AIM-96 x $100,000 160
4800 AIM-82 x $50,000 240
AGMs: $560 million
400 AGM-45 Shrikes x $75,000 30
800 AGM-62 Walleyes x $100,000 80
1200 AGM-65 Mavericks x $75,000 90
400 AGM-83 Bulldogs x $150,000 60
600 AGM-84 Harpoons x $500,000 300
SAMs: $1092 million
800 Sea Sparrow SAMs x $75,000 60
1200 Standard SAMs x $250,000 300
240 Supernova ULRSAMs x $1.5 million 732
SLBMs and SSMs: $1200 million
120 AGM-125 Tomahawk SLCMs x $1 million 120
120 UGM-98 Poseidon SLBMs x $5 million 600
360 RGM-60 Taurus SSMs x $500,000 180
600 RGM-84 Harpoon SSMs x $500,000 300
Munitions: $3200 million
Ammunition: $1200 million
Aircraft Bombs, Rockets and Napalm: $2400 million
USMC: $3,375,600,000
USMC Vehicles and Artillery: $641,600,000
250 M-70 Marshall MBTs x $1 million (250)
360 M-82 Marine Amphibious Fighting Vehicles x $420,000 (151.2)
520 LVTP-7 x $320,000 (166.4)
160 LAV-25 x $125,000 (20)
240 M-125 SPHs x $100,000 (24)
120 M-109 SPHs x $150,000 (18)
60 M-110 SPHs x $200,000 (12)
USMC Munitions: $1,600,000,000
Small Arms Ammunition: $600 million
Artillery Ammunition: $600 million
Aircraft Bombs, Rockets, Missiles and Napalm: $400 million
USMC Aircraft: $1,134,000,000
(216 Fixed Wing and 60 Rotary Aircraft)
96 McDonnell-Douglas Harriers x $3 million
72 A-4 Skyhawk II x $4.25 million
48 F-14 Tomcats x $10 million
24 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1 million
36 CH-53 Super Stallions x $1 million
USAF 1975 Procurement
Budget: $34,665,493,303.91
Spending: $34,643,200,000
Aircraft: $24,957,200,000
(2469 Fixed Wing and 496 Rotary Aircraft)
132 Curtiss-Wright F-109 x $6.5 million 858
72 Boeing F-111s x $12 million 864
72 RF-4 Phantoms x $6 million 432
72 Lockheed-Martin F-13 Starbursts x $8 million 576
287 F-15 Eagles x $12 million 3587.5
524 F-16 Falcons x $8 million 4192
96 Northrop-Grumman F-17 Cobras x $7.5 million 720
48 North American F-20 Rapier IIIs x $16 million 768
96 Convair F-21 Delta Stars x $10 million 960
$12,814 million
144 Fairchild-Republic A-10 Thunderbirds x $8 million 1152
72 Lockheed-Martin A-68 Havocs x $15 million 1080
$2232 million
120 FB-111s x $15 million 1800
6 B-72 x $100 million 600
144 Lockheed-Martin B-75 Marauder II x $18 million 2592
120 Convair-North American B-76 Liberator IIs x $25 3000
$7992 million
36 C-125 x $3 million 108
72 C-15 x $6 million 432
24 C-150 x $12 million 288
12 C-250 x $18 million 216
$1044 million
240 Sikorsky V-24 Vertibirds x $2.5 million (600)
160 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1 million (160)
96 Boeing Vertol CH-62 x $1.2 million (115.2)
$875.2 million
240 Northrop-Grumman T-42 advanced supersonic trainers x $2.5 million (600)
120 Northrop-Grumman T-38 Talon supersonic trainers x $1 million (120)
$720 million
Missiles: $6466 million
LRBMs: 3600
100 MGM-100 Ranger x $20 million (2000)
50 LGM-75 Peacemaker x $32 million (1600)
ALCMs: 1920
960 AGM-125 x $2 million (1920)
ASMs: 586
240 SRAM x $1 million (240)
1200 AGM-65 Mavericks x $75,000 90
400 AGM-78 Standard x $100,000 (40)
600 AGM-53 Condor x $360,000 (216)
AIMs: 360
2400 AIM-82 Agile SRAAM x $50,000 (120)
1200 AIM-96 MRAAM x $100,000 (120)
600 AIM-102 LRAAM x $200,000 (120)
Bombs and Munitions: $2500 million
Aircraft Ammunition: $500 million
Aircraft Bombs, Rockets, Napalm and Ors: $2000 million
US Army Procurement 1975
Budget: $24,423,415,736.84
Spending: $24,390,392,350
Small Arms: $565,515,350
462,993 M16 battle rifles x $250 ($115,748,250)
196,924 M17 Colt Commando carbines x $200 ($39,384,800)
102,684 M1911 pistols x $100 ($10,268,400)
144,723 M78 SMGs x $150 ($21,708,450)
96,792 M25 automatic rifles x $375 ($36,297,000)
87,368 M249 LMGs x $625 ($54,605,000)
52,229 M60 GPMGs x $1250 ($65,286,250)
29,478 M2 HMGs x $2400 ($70,747,200)
24,369 M96 90mm Super Bazookas x $5000 ($121,845,000)
5925 Maxims x $5000 ($29,625,000)
Mortars: $72,880,000
3200 M224 60mm x $5000 (16)
2000 M255 90mm x $10,000 (20)
400 105mm Automatic x $25,000 (10)
400 M120 120mm x $36,000 (14.4)
120 M169 165mm x $54,000 (6.48)
60 M94 254mm SPM x $100,000 (6)
Artillery: $802,600,000
964 M125 x $100,000 (96.4)
440 M109 x $150,000 (66)
168 M110 x $200,000 (33.6)
64 M107 x $200,000 (12.8)
32 M123 x $250,000 (8)
216 M163 x $100,000 (21.6)
72 M249 x $125,000 (9)
24 M284 x $200,000 (4.8)
750 90mm M6 GP Infantry Guns x $96,000 (72)
250 105mm SVAT Guns x $150,000 (37.5)
1600 M125 125mm field guns x $72,000 (115.2)
800 M198 155mm howitzers x $120,000 (96)
320 M219 203mm howitzers x $160,000 (51.2)
476 M270 MRLS x $375,000 (178.5)
Tanks: $6,890,800,000
520 M124 Buford x $640,000 (332.8)
5300 M70 Marshall x $960,000 (5088)
1100 M76 Grant x $800,000 (880)
360 M120 Pershing x $1.5 million (540)
40 M236 Scott x $1.25 million (50)
Armoured Vehicles: $2,906,917,000
6887 M2 Bradley x $250,000 (1721.75)
3295 M113 APCs x $96,000 (316.32)
1983 M250 IMVs x $84,000 (162.572)
2139 Cadillac Gage M706 Commando AMCs x $75,000 160.425
1752 General Dynamics M754 LAV-25 x $125,000 219
960 M800 MAV x $350,000 336
Vehicles: $1310 million
35000 M809 5t truck x $10,000 (350)
8000 Mack M128 10t truck x $15,000 (120)
2000 Oshkosh M911 heavy trucks x $20,000 (40)
4000 Ford M656 10t 8x8 trucks x $25,000 (100)
40,000 HMCVs x $16,000 (640)
12000 M151 jeeps x $5,000 (60)
SSMs: $2262 million
32 Hercules LRBM x $24 million (768)
54 Puritan MRBM x $15 million (810)
96 Pershing SRBM x $4 million (384)
300 MGM-52 Lance TBM x $1 million (300)
SAMs: $908 million
2560 MIM-104 Patriot x $250,000 (640)
1200 MIM-72 Reaper x $90,000 (108)
2400 MIM-46 Mauler x $50,000 (120)
5000 Raytheon FIM-92 Stinger MANPADs x $8000 (40)
ABMs: $1000 million
400 Sprint II x $1 million
200 Spartan x $3 million
ATGMs: $340 million
25000 FGM-17 Viper x $4000 (100)
10000 FGM-77 Dragon x $12,000 (120)
5000 BGM-85 TOW x $24,000 (120)
Aircraft: $2,171,680,000
(160 Fixed Wing and 1762 Rotary Aircraft)
480 Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk x $800,000 (384)
250 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1 million (250)
240 AH-1 Super Cobra x $720,000 (172.8)
120 AH-56 Cheyenne x $960,000 (115.2)
240 AH-64 Apache x $1.2 million (288)
96 Hughes OH-6 x $600,000 (57.6)
72 Sikorsky CH-53 x $980,000 (70.56)
48 Sikorsky MH-54 x $1.1 million (52.8)
36 Boeing UH-62 x $1.2 million (43.2)
60 Bell V-15 x $1.5 million (90)
48 Hughes V-21 x $2 million (96)
72 Sikorsky V-24 Vertibirds x $2.5 million (180)
24 OV-1 Mohawks x $240,000 (5.76)
16 C-12 Hurons x $360,000 (5.76)
120 McDonnell-Douglas Harriers x $3 million (360)
Munitions: $5200 million
Small Arms Ammunition: $1800 million
Artillery Ammunition: $3400 million
USN 1975 Procurement
Budget: $28,493,985,026.32
Spending: $28,377,000,000
Ships total: $6287 million
1 CVN: $1750 million (1750/5)
1 BBGN: $2000 million (2000/5)
2 BCGN: 2 x $750 million (1500/4)
4 CGN: 4 x $500 million (2000/4)
8 Spruance class DLG: 8 x $200 million (1600/4)
12 Nimitz class DDG: 12 x $100 million (1200/3)
12 Fletcher class DD: 12 x $80 million (960/3)
12 OHP DEG: 12 x $50 million (600/3)
12 Knox class DE: 12 x $40 million (480/3)
6 SSN: 6 x $375 million (2250/4)
1975 Share: $3675 million
20 New London class corvettes: 20 x $15 million
24 Hawk class subchasers: 24 x $8 million
16 Pegasus class PHM: 16 x $5 million
$572 million
1 Tarawa class LHAN: 1 x $1600 million (1600/4)
3 x Coronado class LPDs: 3 x $250 million (750/3)
4 x Fort McHenry class LSDs: 4 x $125 million (500/2)
9 x LSTs: 9 x $100 million (900/3)
3 x LKAs: 3 x $75 million (225/3)
2 x LPAs: 3 x $75 million (225/3)
$1350 million
2 x Hiawatha class ADs: 2 x $120 million (240/3)
2 x Emory S. Land ASs: 2 x $120 million (240/3)
1 x Justice class AGP: $90 million (90/1)
3 x Cimarron class AOs: 3 x $160 million (480/3)
2 x AFS combat stores ship: 2 x $150 million (300/3)
2 x AOE fast combat support ships: 2 x $360 million(720/4)
$690 million
Aircraft: $11,890.4 million
(1620 Aircraft + 884 Rotary)
150 F-14 Tomcats x $10 million 1500
240 McDonnell-Douglas A-4 Skyhawk IIs x $4.25 million 1020
120 Northrop-Grumman A-6 Intruders x $7.5 million 900
120 A/S-3 Vikings x $7 million 840
328 F/A-18 Hornets x $6 million 1968
160 F-4 Super Phantoms x $4 million 640
200 McDonnell-Douglas Sea Harriers x $3.5 million 700
96 F/A-111M Vindicators x $12 million 1152
84 EA-6 Prowlers x $12 million 1008
50 E-2C Hawkeyes x $15 million 750
240 Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawks x $960,000 230.4
120 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1.25 million 150
120 Bell AH-1 Sea Cobras x $800,000 96
80 Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knights x $500,000 40
80 Sikorsky SH-3 Sea Kings x $480,000 38.4
80 Hughes SH-6 Sea Defenders x $450,000 36
64 Kaman SH-2 Seasprites x $400,000 25.6
60 Bell V-15 x $1 million 60
40 Bell V-22 VTOL x $1.6 million 64
24 P-10 Triton x $10 million
12 P-12 Sea Lord x $12 million
36 P-15 Catalina x $8 million
Missiles: $3352 million
AIMs: $500 million
400 AIM-54 x $250,000 100
1600 AIM-96 x $100,000 160
4800 AIM-82 x $50,000 240
AGMs: $560 million
400 AGM-45 Shrikes x $75,000 30
800 AGM-62 Walleyes x $100,000 80
1200 AGM-65 Mavericks x $75,000 90
400 AGM-83 Bulldogs x $150,000 60
600 AGM-84 Harpoons x $500,000 300
SAMs: $1092 million
800 Sea Sparrow SAMs x $75,000 60
1200 Standard SAMs x $250,000 300
240 Supernova ULRSAMs x $1.5 million 732
SLBMs and SSMs: $1200 million
120 AGM-125 Tomahawk SLCMs x $1 million 120
120 UGM-98 Poseidon SLBMs x $5 million 600
360 RGM-60 Taurus SSMs x $500,000 180
600 RGM-84 Harpoon SSMs x $500,000 300
Munitions: $3200 million
Ammunition: $1200 million
Aircraft Bombs, Rockets and Napalm: $2400 million
USMC: $3,375,600,000
USMC Vehicles and Artillery: $641,600,000
250 M-70 Marshall MBTs x $1 million (250)
360 M-82 Marine Amphibious Fighting Vehicles x $420,000 (151.2)
520 LVTP-7 x $320,000 (166.4)
160 LAV-25 x $125,000 (20)
240 M-125 SPHs x $100,000 (24)
120 M-109 SPHs x $150,000 (18)
60 M-110 SPHs x $200,000 (12)
USMC Munitions: $1,600,000,000
Small Arms Ammunition: $600 million
Artillery Ammunition: $600 million
Aircraft Bombs, Rockets, Missiles and Napalm: $400 million
USMC Aircraft: $1,134,000,000
(216 Fixed Wing and 60 Rotary Aircraft)
96 McDonnell-Douglas Harriers x $3 million
72 A-4 Skyhawk II x $4.25 million
48 F-14 Tomcats x $10 million
24 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1 million
36 CH-53 Super Stallions x $1 million
USAF 1975 Procurement
Budget: $34,665,493,303.91
Spending: $34,643,200,000
Aircraft: $24,957,200,000
(2469 Fixed Wing and 496 Rotary Aircraft)
132 Curtiss-Wright F-109 x $6.5 million 858
72 Boeing F-111s x $12 million 864
72 RF-4 Phantoms x $6 million 432
72 Lockheed-Martin F-13 Starbursts x $8 million 576
287 F-15 Eagles x $12 million 3587.5
524 F-16 Falcons x $8 million 4192
96 Northrop-Grumman F-17 Cobras x $7.5 million 720
48 North American F-20 Rapier IIIs x $16 million 768
96 Convair F-21 Delta Stars x $10 million 960
$12,814 million
144 Fairchild-Republic A-10 Thunderbirds x $8 million 1152
72 Lockheed-Martin A-68 Havocs x $15 million 1080
$2232 million
120 FB-111s x $15 million 1800
6 B-72 x $100 million 600
144 Lockheed-Martin B-75 Marauder II x $18 million 2592
120 Convair-North American B-76 Liberator IIs x $25 3000
$7992 million
36 C-125 x $3 million 108
72 C-15 x $6 million 432
24 C-150 x $12 million 288
12 C-250 x $18 million 216
$1044 million
240 Sikorsky V-24 Vertibirds x $2.5 million (600)
160 Kaman Super Rotodynes x $1 million (160)
96 Boeing Vertol CH-62 x $1.2 million (115.2)
$875.2 million
240 Northrop-Grumman T-42 advanced supersonic trainers x $2.5 million (600)
120 Northrop-Grumman T-38 Talon supersonic trainers x $1 million (120)
$720 million
Missiles: $6466 million
LRBMs: 3600
100 MGM-100 Ranger x $20 million (2000)
50 LGM-75 Peacemaker x $32 million (1600)
ALCMs: 1920
960 AGM-125 x $2 million (1920)
ASMs: 586
240 SRAM x $1 million (240)
1200 AGM-65 Mavericks x $75,000 90
400 AGM-78 Standard x $100,000 (40)
600 AGM-53 Condor x $360,000 (216)
AIMs: 360
2400 AIM-82 Agile SRAAM x $50,000 (120)
1200 AIM-96 MRAAM x $100,000 (120)
600 AIM-102 LRAAM x $200,000 (120)
Bombs and Munitions: $2500 million
Aircraft Ammunition: $500 million
Aircraft Bombs, Rockets, Napalm and Ors: $2000 million
-
Eaglenine2
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:22 pm
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Eh dumb question why are US using Maxims?
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
The Maxim here is a shorthand trade name for a modern 25.4mm/1” autocannon. It is the next step up from a heavy machine gun for reaching out, touching somebody and making a difference in their life from up to 5000 yards away, or otherwise making permanent career changes at 360rpm.
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
In the lead up to 1976, some thoughts on sports:
- Soccer is popular across the world, but hasn’t really kicked off in quite the same way outside of Europe and South America. There have been some attempts to expand its reach into the USA and Canada through the celebrity player loaded North American Soccer League, but it hasn’t broken through into the mainstream of North American sporting culture
- Similarly, in Australia and New Zealand, soccer is confined to European and British migrants, with the lack of physicality and low scoring being the considerable focus of criticism, whilst the existing football codes outperform it in every metric
- There hasn’t been any notable incidence of soccer hooliganism in Britain or Europe, with violence by supporters being viewed as the stuff of hot headed Latin Americans.
- What is also absent from British soccer, and by extension British sporting crowds, is the habit of singing. This historically developed in the 1960s due in large part to the rise of youth oriented pop/rock and roll music, such as The Beatles. In the absence of that here, there is simply the earlier array of cheering, individual barracking, some chants and the like
- There is some singing in soccer, but it comes in Europe, and specifically from certain parts of the Balkans and Byzantine Greece, where there are some Orthodox-influenced team songs that try to invoke divine favour upon their players
- Soccer balls are still a utilitarian affair, rather than the Adidas Telstar
- World Cups are still the stuff of Europe and South America: Uruguay in 30, Italy in 34, France 38, Brazil 50, Switzerland 54, Sweden 58, Chile 62, England 66, Spain 70 and Germany 74
- The relative position of soccer in its heartlands could be characterised as popular, but just entering a little bit of a jaded period with defensive play increasingly dominating
- Basketball hasn’t had its historical 1960s boost in profile to the same extent, due to a more crowded sporting scene in the USA, the relatively smaller African-American population in the urban North and West, some different rules, and the absence of some historical players
- It hasn’t quite taken off internationally in the same fashion, with developments more on a level of ~ 1966, albeit with the absence of the FIBA Intercontinental Cup
- The ABA continues as a rival competition to the NBA
- Gridiron does seem to be quite literally cursed, although initial investigations have revealed that it has not been the responsibility of Soviet wizards as first surmised. Rule changes and additional player protection have been very unpopular, player strikes have exacerbated a parlous commercial environment off the field, accidents and scandals seem to proliferate, and a near miss from the Goodyear blimp and polyturf/astroturf catching on fire during the 1975 Super Bowl
- This myriad of issues is filtering down to grassroots American football, with concerns from many mothers at the prospect of seeing their sons risk brain damage or worse cutting into numbers
- Some executives, as well as looking to cover themselves and not go down with the apparent sinking ship, have been very quietly exploring not only significant changes to the sport, but the once unthinkable option of what could take its place
- Rugby is not encountering either the problems of gridiron or the profile of soccer, being predominantly based in Northern England, Wales, Scotland, France, Argentina, South Africa and New Zealand. It has slipped in position in Australia, where what was later (1978) historically described as the Barassi Line developing in a different fashion, with Aussie Rules now outperforming Rugby in NSW as of 1975/76
- There was no split between rugby league and rugby union in DE
- Some of the concerns associated with the health impacts of gridiron are being examined by concerned rugby officials; attention is being paid to scrummages, rucks and mauls, as well as the type of tackling currently allowed
- Australian Rules Football is entering a golden period, quite literally, having had a lot of investment from an eccentric American multi-millionaire who has plans of making a mint from international broadcasts, exhibitions and expansion. Scoring rates have increased from their post WW2 dip, and some form of national competition is being openly discussed, along with a higher profile of state football representative games
- Reform of the night series into a quasi pre-season competition is being mooted
- Promotion and marketing of the sport through various audiovisual advertising, books, clothing, collectibles and associated goods is increasing income, and, in concert with the American money and broadcast agreements, more money is filtering down to clubs, grassroots football and to players. One manifestation of this will be clubs not facing financial collapse in the 70s, 80s and 90s, such as Footscray, St. Kilda and Fitzroy
- Some rule changes are being contemplated, including expansion of the interchange bench, and some executed, such as a shift to a Final 6 system in 1976 in the expanded VFL, standard game times of 4 x 30 minute quarters plus time on, and standardised 24 game minor round seasons in the VFL, SANFL, WAFL, NSWFL, TFL and QFL
- Certain players will be playing a bit earlier, whilst others will not have their careers hamstrung by injury
- Cricket is in some ways the most widespread sport in the world, and it is on a good wicket. The maiden World Cup was a roaring success, and the notion of Limited Overs Internationals is seen as a useful development of the sport
- World Series Cricket won’t occur here, with Packer getting his desired broadcast agreement in 1976. There will be some innovations, such as day/night games, coloured uniforms, white balls and eventual field restrictions being introduced incrementally in some cases
- This will result in some of the world’s best players not being lost to Tests for the better part of several years, such as Lillee, Richards, Chappell and Marsh
- The West Indies are currently considered the one of the best teams in the world, and this will shift into a period of dominance through their combination of batting and bowling talent. Looking further ahead, the likes of Richie Richardson, Carl Hooper, Brian Lara, Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh and Ian Bishop will continue this
- Australia will see David Hookes have more of an extended Test and ODI career, Kim Hughes not hit the same rocks and shoals, and in the 1980s, the likes of Boon, Jones, McDermott and Healy will get a bit of an earlier and extended run, along with an earlier certain pair of twins, Mark Taylor, Tom Moody and an unconstrained Simon O’Donnell
- South Africa never has an exile from international cricket, so their array of talent (Barry Richards, Graham Pollock, Clive Rice, Kepler Wessels, Garth Le Roux, Mike Procter, Eddie Barlow, Peter Kirsten, Vintcent van der Bijl, Ray Jennings and Alan Kourie) puts them right in the top echelon of the world
- England have sufficient talent and experience to challenge any other side, from Boycott and Ratcliffe at the top of the innings, to Dennis Amiss, Mike Brearley, Graham Gooch, Tony Greig, Derek Randall and Alan Knott as the middle order and a decent bowling attack of Ian Botham, Bob Willis, Derek Underwood and Chris Old to go along with Greig
- In terms of raw talent, the Indian side can call on Sunil Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, Venkat, Bishan Bedi, Viswanath and Amarnath, as well as Imran Khan, Zaheer Abbas, Javed Miandad, Safraz Nawaz, Wasim Bari, Majid Khan and more
- The USA has a very good team thanks to their population size and wealth
- Soccer is popular across the world, but hasn’t really kicked off in quite the same way outside of Europe and South America. There have been some attempts to expand its reach into the USA and Canada through the celebrity player loaded North American Soccer League, but it hasn’t broken through into the mainstream of North American sporting culture
- Similarly, in Australia and New Zealand, soccer is confined to European and British migrants, with the lack of physicality and low scoring being the considerable focus of criticism, whilst the existing football codes outperform it in every metric
- There hasn’t been any notable incidence of soccer hooliganism in Britain or Europe, with violence by supporters being viewed as the stuff of hot headed Latin Americans.
- What is also absent from British soccer, and by extension British sporting crowds, is the habit of singing. This historically developed in the 1960s due in large part to the rise of youth oriented pop/rock and roll music, such as The Beatles. In the absence of that here, there is simply the earlier array of cheering, individual barracking, some chants and the like
- There is some singing in soccer, but it comes in Europe, and specifically from certain parts of the Balkans and Byzantine Greece, where there are some Orthodox-influenced team songs that try to invoke divine favour upon their players
- Soccer balls are still a utilitarian affair, rather than the Adidas Telstar
- World Cups are still the stuff of Europe and South America: Uruguay in 30, Italy in 34, France 38, Brazil 50, Switzerland 54, Sweden 58, Chile 62, England 66, Spain 70 and Germany 74
- The relative position of soccer in its heartlands could be characterised as popular, but just entering a little bit of a jaded period with defensive play increasingly dominating
- Basketball hasn’t had its historical 1960s boost in profile to the same extent, due to a more crowded sporting scene in the USA, the relatively smaller African-American population in the urban North and West, some different rules, and the absence of some historical players
- It hasn’t quite taken off internationally in the same fashion, with developments more on a level of ~ 1966, albeit with the absence of the FIBA Intercontinental Cup
- The ABA continues as a rival competition to the NBA
- Gridiron does seem to be quite literally cursed, although initial investigations have revealed that it has not been the responsibility of Soviet wizards as first surmised. Rule changes and additional player protection have been very unpopular, player strikes have exacerbated a parlous commercial environment off the field, accidents and scandals seem to proliferate, and a near miss from the Goodyear blimp and polyturf/astroturf catching on fire during the 1975 Super Bowl
- This myriad of issues is filtering down to grassroots American football, with concerns from many mothers at the prospect of seeing their sons risk brain damage or worse cutting into numbers
- Some executives, as well as looking to cover themselves and not go down with the apparent sinking ship, have been very quietly exploring not only significant changes to the sport, but the once unthinkable option of what could take its place
- Rugby is not encountering either the problems of gridiron or the profile of soccer, being predominantly based in Northern England, Wales, Scotland, France, Argentina, South Africa and New Zealand. It has slipped in position in Australia, where what was later (1978) historically described as the Barassi Line developing in a different fashion, with Aussie Rules now outperforming Rugby in NSW as of 1975/76
- There was no split between rugby league and rugby union in DE
- Some of the concerns associated with the health impacts of gridiron are being examined by concerned rugby officials; attention is being paid to scrummages, rucks and mauls, as well as the type of tackling currently allowed
- Australian Rules Football is entering a golden period, quite literally, having had a lot of investment from an eccentric American multi-millionaire who has plans of making a mint from international broadcasts, exhibitions and expansion. Scoring rates have increased from their post WW2 dip, and some form of national competition is being openly discussed, along with a higher profile of state football representative games
- Reform of the night series into a quasi pre-season competition is being mooted
- Promotion and marketing of the sport through various audiovisual advertising, books, clothing, collectibles and associated goods is increasing income, and, in concert with the American money and broadcast agreements, more money is filtering down to clubs, grassroots football and to players. One manifestation of this will be clubs not facing financial collapse in the 70s, 80s and 90s, such as Footscray, St. Kilda and Fitzroy
- Some rule changes are being contemplated, including expansion of the interchange bench, and some executed, such as a shift to a Final 6 system in 1976 in the expanded VFL, standard game times of 4 x 30 minute quarters plus time on, and standardised 24 game minor round seasons in the VFL, SANFL, WAFL, NSWFL, TFL and QFL
- Certain players will be playing a bit earlier, whilst others will not have their careers hamstrung by injury
- Cricket is in some ways the most widespread sport in the world, and it is on a good wicket. The maiden World Cup was a roaring success, and the notion of Limited Overs Internationals is seen as a useful development of the sport
- World Series Cricket won’t occur here, with Packer getting his desired broadcast agreement in 1976. There will be some innovations, such as day/night games, coloured uniforms, white balls and eventual field restrictions being introduced incrementally in some cases
- This will result in some of the world’s best players not being lost to Tests for the better part of several years, such as Lillee, Richards, Chappell and Marsh
- The West Indies are currently considered the one of the best teams in the world, and this will shift into a period of dominance through their combination of batting and bowling talent. Looking further ahead, the likes of Richie Richardson, Carl Hooper, Brian Lara, Curtly Ambrose, Courtney Walsh and Ian Bishop will continue this
- Australia will see David Hookes have more of an extended Test and ODI career, Kim Hughes not hit the same rocks and shoals, and in the 1980s, the likes of Boon, Jones, McDermott and Healy will get a bit of an earlier and extended run, along with an earlier certain pair of twins, Mark Taylor, Tom Moody and an unconstrained Simon O’Donnell
- South Africa never has an exile from international cricket, so their array of talent (Barry Richards, Graham Pollock, Clive Rice, Kepler Wessels, Garth Le Roux, Mike Procter, Eddie Barlow, Peter Kirsten, Vintcent van der Bijl, Ray Jennings and Alan Kourie) puts them right in the top echelon of the world
- England have sufficient talent and experience to challenge any other side, from Boycott and Ratcliffe at the top of the innings, to Dennis Amiss, Mike Brearley, Graham Gooch, Tony Greig, Derek Randall and Alan Knott as the middle order and a decent bowling attack of Ian Botham, Bob Willis, Derek Underwood and Chris Old to go along with Greig
- In terms of raw talent, the Indian side can call on Sunil Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, Venkat, Bishan Bedi, Viswanath and Amarnath, as well as Imran Khan, Zaheer Abbas, Javed Miandad, Safraz Nawaz, Wasim Bari, Majid Khan and more
- The USA has a very good team thanks to their population size and wealth
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
A wee preview from January 1976:
January 1: A Middle Eastern Airways Super Comet flying from Beirut to Muscat is stricken by an explosion after landing in Oman, with a bomb apparently being planted in luggage loaded in the cargo bay. Fortuitously, the passengers and most of the crew had already disembarked, with the tardy unloading of the airport's ground crew preventing more casualties than the six crew members still on board. Investigations by Omani and Arab Union officials indicate that the bomb seemed to have been a relatively crude device, possibly the work of Omani rebels.
January 2: US toy and children's entertainment industry data indicates that sales in the last quarter of 1974 (not counting Christmas due to it being too recent) increased over the previous year by 23%, with action figures aimed at boys being a particular driver of sales. A number of media properties, fictional series and characters have been forecast as being released in the coming bicentennial year, including Filmation's planned cartoon and comic series He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, and a number of characters owned by Disney.
January 5: Launch of the first atomic powered supercarrier of the Imperial Japanese Navy, HIJMS Taihō, at Yokosuka, with a crowd of thousands in attendance. Taihō and her projected sisters are viewed as Japan's most significant move towards full spectrum operations and the capacity to counter the likes of the Pacific Monster.
January 13: A meeting of the newly established ultra-right wing political party Norsefire is attended by a pair of clandestine Security Service operatives, with their subsequent report describing the thirteen-strong membership as consisting of 'caricatures, cryptofascists, Blimps and the last vomitous dregs of the BUF', and that no action need be taken at this time given their predominate interest lies in bloviating speeches, consumption of alcoholic beverages and living in a past which never existed.
January 18: The Pittsburgh Steelers defeat the Dallas Cowboys in the Super Bowl, with a major part of the day being the constant anticipation of what misfortune would befall the game on this occasion. Today, the renowned Texas Cowgirls cheerleading squad fall off their portable stage and suffer a wardrobe malfunction, the game balls explode not once, nor twice, but thrice, and there is a brief rain of toads in the fourth quarter, disrupting the game for 29 minutes.
January 31: Local elections are held across the Falkland Islands, with the recent increase in population seeing an extra eight seats being added to the Legislative Council. For the first time at this year's British general election, a full slate of candidates will be competing to become the Falklands' first Westminster MP, with popular former policeman John Boulton the current favourite to secure the seat, one of the wealthiest in Britain on a per capita basis.
January 1: A Middle Eastern Airways Super Comet flying from Beirut to Muscat is stricken by an explosion after landing in Oman, with a bomb apparently being planted in luggage loaded in the cargo bay. Fortuitously, the passengers and most of the crew had already disembarked, with the tardy unloading of the airport's ground crew preventing more casualties than the six crew members still on board. Investigations by Omani and Arab Union officials indicate that the bomb seemed to have been a relatively crude device, possibly the work of Omani rebels.
January 2: US toy and children's entertainment industry data indicates that sales in the last quarter of 1974 (not counting Christmas due to it being too recent) increased over the previous year by 23%, with action figures aimed at boys being a particular driver of sales. A number of media properties, fictional series and characters have been forecast as being released in the coming bicentennial year, including Filmation's planned cartoon and comic series He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, and a number of characters owned by Disney.
January 5: Launch of the first atomic powered supercarrier of the Imperial Japanese Navy, HIJMS Taihō, at Yokosuka, with a crowd of thousands in attendance. Taihō and her projected sisters are viewed as Japan's most significant move towards full spectrum operations and the capacity to counter the likes of the Pacific Monster.
January 13: A meeting of the newly established ultra-right wing political party Norsefire is attended by a pair of clandestine Security Service operatives, with their subsequent report describing the thirteen-strong membership as consisting of 'caricatures, cryptofascists, Blimps and the last vomitous dregs of the BUF', and that no action need be taken at this time given their predominate interest lies in bloviating speeches, consumption of alcoholic beverages and living in a past which never existed.
January 18: The Pittsburgh Steelers defeat the Dallas Cowboys in the Super Bowl, with a major part of the day being the constant anticipation of what misfortune would befall the game on this occasion. Today, the renowned Texas Cowgirls cheerleading squad fall off their portable stage and suffer a wardrobe malfunction, the game balls explode not once, nor twice, but thrice, and there is a brief rain of toads in the fourth quarter, disrupting the game for 29 minutes.
January 31: Local elections are held across the Falkland Islands, with the recent increase in population seeing an extra eight seats being added to the Legislative Council. For the first time at this year's British general election, a full slate of candidates will be competing to become the Falklands' first Westminster MP, with popular former policeman John Boulton the current favourite to secure the seat, one of the wealthiest in Britain on a per capita basis.
-
jemhouston
- Posts: 6025
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:38 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Sounds like someone was mad at the Cowboys.
Good for them.
Good for them.
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
As mentioned in the broader sporting notes directly above, it isn’t just the Cowboys. After this, things are rapidly approaching their last straw.
-
Bernard Woolley
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:06 pm
- Location: Earth
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
The leader of Norsefire isn’t called Adam Susan, perchance? And did John Boulton ever serve at Sun Hill in London? 
“Frankly, I had enjoyed the war… and why do people want peace if the war is so much fun?” - Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Susan doesn’t exist; the Moore version of Britain is very, very, very far away from that of DE. The role of Norsefire is to highlight how the less ridiculous part of the far right (comparatively less ridiculous, that is) simply does not exist. No British Movement or other Neo Nazis, no National Front, no organised skinhead fascist fringe, and none of the silly groups established by Moseley post WW2 - in Dark Earth, he is killed in a car accident in New York before any sense of the BUF was born.
John Boulton did indeed serve as a Detective Sergeant with Sunhill CID before relocating to Stanley. There, as in London, he gets results! However, the crime rate down south is slightly less than that of early 1970s DE Sarth London (which in turn is around 15-20% of @ at most).
John Boulton did indeed serve as a Detective Sergeant with Sunhill CID before relocating to Stanley. There, as in London, he gets results! However, the crime rate down south is slightly less than that of early 1970s DE Sarth London (which in turn is around 15-20% of @ at most).
-
Belushi TD
- Posts: 1586
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:20 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Not the Cowboys....jemhouston wrote: ↑Tue Jan 06, 2026 5:39 pm Sounds like someone was mad at the Cowboys.
Good for them.
American Gridiron football in its entirety.
Wonder who that could be ???????
*grin*
Belushi TD
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Spoiler alert: A grieving mother and father whose son succumbed to football related injuries got in touch with a rather powerful and twisted wizard who had his own axe to grind against everyday American society in general. He had previously been approached by some soccer executives in a different capacity, so decided to lay a bit of a false trail as part of his dastardly curse...
Will anyone find him and stop him in time? Will it be Reverend Elvis? Will it be The Beatles? Will it be a gang of youngsters and their talented Great Dane? Or will it be Penry, the mild-mannered janitor?
Will anyone find him and stop him in time? Will it be Reverend Elvis? Will it be The Beatles? Will it be a gang of youngsters and their talented Great Dane? Or will it be Penry, the mild-mannered janitor?
-
Belushi TD
- Posts: 1586
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:20 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
I'd think this would be a job for the teal colored platypus agent of O.W.C.A.....Simon Darkshade wrote: ↑Wed Jan 07, 2026 1:55 pm Spoiler alert: A grieving mother and father whose son succumbed to football related injuries got in touch with a rather powerful and twisted wizard who had his own axe to grind against everyday American society in general. He had previously been approached by some soccer executives in a different capacity, so decided to lay a bit of a false trail as part of his dastardly curse...
Will anyone find him and stop him in time? Will it be Reverend Elvis? Will it be The Beatles? Will it be a gang of youngsters and their talented Great Dane? Or will it be Penry, the mild-mannered janitor?
Belushi TD