Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
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Bernard Woolley
- Posts: 1141
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:06 pm
- Location: Earth
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Just thinking, and forgive me if you’ve covered this, but if the RN has escort carriers in service, then there might be a role for the Short Seamew. Coastal Command might also use it.
“Frankly, I had enjoyed the war… and why do people want peace if the war is so much fun?” - Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1675
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
More than alright, Bernard.
As it happens, I have 'covered' the Seamew, but not in a piece yet published anywhere. The idea of a second-class ASW aircraft for 1950/51 amid the Korean War rearmament and preparation for a much larger war is naturally intriguing, and my next Korean War article (partly written, but wholly fleshed out/structured, if that makes sense) touches upon the procurement of the Short Seamew as a reserve carrier-borne ASW plane for what was still laid up at that point. Several hundred were procured for the RNVR, both carrier-borne for the FAA and land based for the RNAS.
What happened was that a Third World War didn't come during the 1950s/1957 Year of Maximum Danger (although to be 'fair', things came mighty close in 1956!).
The Korean War era planes, such as the fronline Gannet and the reserve Seamew, were then replaced in the late 1950s and early 1960s by a combination of four new aircraft - the Armstrong-Whitworth Albion twin turboprop MPA, the Short Sydney ASW jet flying boat, the Fairey Rotodyne and the Blackburn Bermuda. The last was a twin 4000shp turboprop carrier based ASW plane that entered service without too much fanfare at the end of 1961.
In the main in the 1960s, the RN ASW role was largely taken up by the Rotodyne and helicopters, as these could operate off much smaller vessels than carriers. The Andrew had also shed its WW2 construction light fleets in the late 1950s to save money for the very expensive fleet carrier programme, including the nuclear powered Ark Royals, and the remaining Illustrious class ships still around in 1960 were gone by 1964/65 through a combination of that and general age. The Bermuda was then deployed in small numbers on the fleet carriers - the 1940s Maltas, the 1950s Audacious class and the Ark Royals - whilst the Rotodyne could be operated off destroyers, cruisers and the new construction large frigates as well as the carriers. So the poor old Blackburn Bermuda never really got a chance to fully shine during the 1960s.
From 1964 or so, both the USN and RN looked upon the Soviet and other submarine threats, the issue of block obsolescence of much of the wartime construction that had served them well since the Last War, and that there would be a very big gap coming in the early 1970s when the Essex class CVSs went bye-bye; the British also were starting to miss having smaller carriers about, and were looking at various solutions, including 'Escort Cruisers' and some form of Light Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft Carrier or CVSL. Both navies also had quite a lot of stars in their eyes about the potential of the P.1154 Harrier and other VSTOL. They agreed to pursue three joint programmes: one for a frigate, one for a light ASW carrier and one for an even lighter helicopter carrier.
The 'light ASW carrier' grew in size quite quickly in the joint design process from ~ 32,000t to just over 40,000t as more systems were added on, but ended up being quite capable in their own niche.
The helicopter carrier became the CVSE or the ASW Escort Carrier, which also grew from an initial idea of a ship around 15,000 - 16,000t to something a little bit smaller than the 1990s HMS Ocean. They can carry Harriers, but operating more than 4 pushes things a bit; they are ideally suited to helicopters and Rotodynes, as they lack the ski jump fitted on the CVSLs, as well as a lot of fuel and weapons storage.
The role of the CVSE is to sail alongside convoys and provide up to two dozen helos or Rotodynes, or very much a defensive mission, whereas the ASW CVLs have more of a hunter-killer role.
Where does this leave fixed wing ASW carrier planes as of 1975? In 2.5 categories.
1.) The firstline role, of the USN A/S-3s and the RN Fairey Swordfish is for a twin jet multirole ASW/ASuW plane deployed on the big decks, having taken over from the S-2s and the Bermudas in that respect. They are augmented by Rotodynes deployed on the carriers, and on the cruisers and battlecruisers which ride shotgun in carrier battle groups.
2.) The second line role is filled by Rotodynes and helicopters, but there are efforts to develop an VSTOL ASW aircraft which can operate freely off the CVLs and in a slightly more restricted fashion off the CVHEs. Squaring that circle is an interesting challenge.
2.5) Where have the 1960s generation of turboprop ASW carrier planes gone? Out to a farm in the country or the boneyard? Not quite. The actual fate of quite a few of them has been to be transferred to service on the four Floating Fortresses out in the Atlantic, where they can provide coverage and patrol over large areas. Given that each of these platforms were designed in the 1940s and 50s to operate up to 250 aircraft, some of the older planes are better suited to them.
As a final note, RAF Coastal Command hasn't existed here, what with the RNAS keeping that role and that of the FAA through the 1920s and 1930s; in the Second World War, this served as something of an operational advantage, as, unlike Coastal Command, the RNAS wasn't regarded as a slightly slow red-headed stepchild to be given hand-me-downs and odd socks.
As it happens, I have 'covered' the Seamew, but not in a piece yet published anywhere. The idea of a second-class ASW aircraft for 1950/51 amid the Korean War rearmament and preparation for a much larger war is naturally intriguing, and my next Korean War article (partly written, but wholly fleshed out/structured, if that makes sense) touches upon the procurement of the Short Seamew as a reserve carrier-borne ASW plane for what was still laid up at that point. Several hundred were procured for the RNVR, both carrier-borne for the FAA and land based for the RNAS.
What happened was that a Third World War didn't come during the 1950s/1957 Year of Maximum Danger (although to be 'fair', things came mighty close in 1956!).
The Korean War era planes, such as the fronline Gannet and the reserve Seamew, were then replaced in the late 1950s and early 1960s by a combination of four new aircraft - the Armstrong-Whitworth Albion twin turboprop MPA, the Short Sydney ASW jet flying boat, the Fairey Rotodyne and the Blackburn Bermuda. The last was a twin 4000shp turboprop carrier based ASW plane that entered service without too much fanfare at the end of 1961.
In the main in the 1960s, the RN ASW role was largely taken up by the Rotodyne and helicopters, as these could operate off much smaller vessels than carriers. The Andrew had also shed its WW2 construction light fleets in the late 1950s to save money for the very expensive fleet carrier programme, including the nuclear powered Ark Royals, and the remaining Illustrious class ships still around in 1960 were gone by 1964/65 through a combination of that and general age. The Bermuda was then deployed in small numbers on the fleet carriers - the 1940s Maltas, the 1950s Audacious class and the Ark Royals - whilst the Rotodyne could be operated off destroyers, cruisers and the new construction large frigates as well as the carriers. So the poor old Blackburn Bermuda never really got a chance to fully shine during the 1960s.
From 1964 or so, both the USN and RN looked upon the Soviet and other submarine threats, the issue of block obsolescence of much of the wartime construction that had served them well since the Last War, and that there would be a very big gap coming in the early 1970s when the Essex class CVSs went bye-bye; the British also were starting to miss having smaller carriers about, and were looking at various solutions, including 'Escort Cruisers' and some form of Light Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft Carrier or CVSL. Both navies also had quite a lot of stars in their eyes about the potential of the P.1154 Harrier and other VSTOL. They agreed to pursue three joint programmes: one for a frigate, one for a light ASW carrier and one for an even lighter helicopter carrier.
The 'light ASW carrier' grew in size quite quickly in the joint design process from ~ 32,000t to just over 40,000t as more systems were added on, but ended up being quite capable in their own niche.
The helicopter carrier became the CVSE or the ASW Escort Carrier, which also grew from an initial idea of a ship around 15,000 - 16,000t to something a little bit smaller than the 1990s HMS Ocean. They can carry Harriers, but operating more than 4 pushes things a bit; they are ideally suited to helicopters and Rotodynes, as they lack the ski jump fitted on the CVSLs, as well as a lot of fuel and weapons storage.
The role of the CVSE is to sail alongside convoys and provide up to two dozen helos or Rotodynes, or very much a defensive mission, whereas the ASW CVLs have more of a hunter-killer role.
Where does this leave fixed wing ASW carrier planes as of 1975? In 2.5 categories.
1.) The firstline role, of the USN A/S-3s and the RN Fairey Swordfish is for a twin jet multirole ASW/ASuW plane deployed on the big decks, having taken over from the S-2s and the Bermudas in that respect. They are augmented by Rotodynes deployed on the carriers, and on the cruisers and battlecruisers which ride shotgun in carrier battle groups.
2.) The second line role is filled by Rotodynes and helicopters, but there are efforts to develop an VSTOL ASW aircraft which can operate freely off the CVLs and in a slightly more restricted fashion off the CVHEs. Squaring that circle is an interesting challenge.
2.5) Where have the 1960s generation of turboprop ASW carrier planes gone? Out to a farm in the country or the boneyard? Not quite. The actual fate of quite a few of them has been to be transferred to service on the four Floating Fortresses out in the Atlantic, where they can provide coverage and patrol over large areas. Given that each of these platforms were designed in the 1940s and 50s to operate up to 250 aircraft, some of the older planes are better suited to them.
As a final note, RAF Coastal Command hasn't existed here, what with the RNAS keeping that role and that of the FAA through the 1920s and 1930s; in the Second World War, this served as something of an operational advantage, as, unlike Coastal Command, the RNAS wasn't regarded as a slightly slow red-headed stepchild to be given hand-me-downs and odd socks.
Last edited by Simon Darkshade on Sat Nov 15, 2025 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Belushi TD
- Posts: 1517
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:20 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
I find it interesting that there are still guns on the Midway, United States, Malta, Audacious and Ark Royal classes, presumably for AAW?
Have aircraft not exceeded the abilities of the guns to be trained and reacted to, like what happened IOTL?
Or was this how they were built, and the guns were removed during refits and its just not mentioned here?
Belushi TD
Have aircraft not exceeded the abilities of the guns to be trained and reacted to, like what happened IOTL?
Or was this how they were built, and the guns were removed during refits and its just not mentioned here?
Belushi TD
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Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1675
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
The gun armaments on the British and American carriers reflected their configuration in 1960/61 (someone really needs to do some detailed updated orbats 
).
The last 5" guns on Midway were removed in 1977 in OTL, although many of the original 18 had been whittled down before then.
For the British ships, the Midway equivalent Maltas did have some of their 3.75" mounts removed in various 1960s refits, to be replaced by more modern missile systems, Legion Close-in Weapons Systems and other new lighter autocannnon. The same has happened to the Audacious class and the Ark Royals, but none of them have been completely shorn of their guns yet
(Incidentally, the historical Ark Royal similarly lost her guns in stages: https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal- ... -Royal.htm )
Why haven't they been completely removed yet? Three things - political interference, countering threats other than aircraft and missiles and numbers:
- The RN has been subject to some interesting degrees of political interference by Prime Minister Stanley Barton on some very particular aspects of design and operations - some admirals have whispered that it is their misfortune to cop two Churchills in one lifetime - and one of these is to do with gun armament. It turns out that he was talking to President Kennedy during one of his trips to the White House, and they fell into considerable agreement that it was worth retaining them, if but to reserve space for the type of future rapid fire guns or combined gun-missile mounts that were then being developed.
- As well as aircraft, missiles and politicians, there are other dangers in this world for ships of all sizes, ranging from extremely large ones that swim around in the Pacific and have attacked Tokyo and Shanghai and sunk an Imperial Chinese battleship, to others which might not be quite so large or formidable, but which nevertheless can cause significant damage. Having the ability to engage and drive off nasties like these at distances of 25,000 to 35,000 yards cheaply and without cracking open/taking away from their wartime armament is not seen as altogether a bad thing
- Numbers: The following explanation is provided by Kevin Malone from The Office
"Big ship change take time. Ship take time in yard = Ship not able to go out and play, or cover other ship which come back home from play. Not long ago, many ship go out and play far away in place called Viet Nam. Big play. Long time. Many ship only get short time in port. Now, that play time over, but ship still need go all over. Navy plan big ship change party. Call it SLEP. It let them make big changes, plus make old ship seem like not so old any more. First Langley, then United States class ships and other Enterprises. Navy want long term have 24 carriers able go out and play; for now, put up with 20. Just now, not have 20 yet - have 19, and some them be old Midways which can't play so good."
Hopefully that makes sense, but the gist of it is that serious yard times where *some* gun mounts get taken off and replaced with extended decks or new weapons is a can that has been kicked down the road throughout the 1960s with Vietnam, and now is finally starting to get moving. The idea of trying to get (the DE version of, which would be a tad larger) some sort of CVV, or conventionally powered 'medium' carrier is at the least being looked at, as one of several proposals.
(Simon waits for someone to notice that the USN has an Asiatic Fleet and a Mediterranean Fleet in addition to the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, or to notice the other hidden Easter eggs )
). The last 5" guns on Midway were removed in 1977 in OTL, although many of the original 18 had been whittled down before then.
For the British ships, the Midway equivalent Maltas did have some of their 3.75" mounts removed in various 1960s refits, to be replaced by more modern missile systems, Legion Close-in Weapons Systems and other new lighter autocannnon. The same has happened to the Audacious class and the Ark Royals, but none of them have been completely shorn of their guns yet
(Incidentally, the historical Ark Royal similarly lost her guns in stages: https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal- ... -Royal.htm )
Why haven't they been completely removed yet? Three things - political interference, countering threats other than aircraft and missiles and numbers:
- The RN has been subject to some interesting degrees of political interference by Prime Minister Stanley Barton on some very particular aspects of design and operations - some admirals have whispered that it is their misfortune to cop two Churchills in one lifetime - and one of these is to do with gun armament. It turns out that he was talking to President Kennedy during one of his trips to the White House, and they fell into considerable agreement that it was worth retaining them, if but to reserve space for the type of future rapid fire guns or combined gun-missile mounts that were then being developed.
- As well as aircraft, missiles and politicians, there are other dangers in this world for ships of all sizes, ranging from extremely large ones that swim around in the Pacific and have attacked Tokyo and Shanghai and sunk an Imperial Chinese battleship, to others which might not be quite so large or formidable, but which nevertheless can cause significant damage. Having the ability to engage and drive off nasties like these at distances of 25,000 to 35,000 yards cheaply and without cracking open/taking away from their wartime armament is not seen as altogether a bad thing
- Numbers: The following explanation is provided by Kevin Malone from The Office
"Big ship change take time. Ship take time in yard = Ship not able to go out and play, or cover other ship which come back home from play. Not long ago, many ship go out and play far away in place called Viet Nam. Big play. Long time. Many ship only get short time in port. Now, that play time over, but ship still need go all over. Navy plan big ship change party. Call it SLEP. It let them make big changes, plus make old ship seem like not so old any more. First Langley, then United States class ships and other Enterprises. Navy want long term have 24 carriers able go out and play; for now, put up with 20. Just now, not have 20 yet - have 19, and some them be old Midways which can't play so good."
Hopefully that makes sense, but the gist of it is that serious yard times where *some* gun mounts get taken off and replaced with extended decks or new weapons is a can that has been kicked down the road throughout the 1960s with Vietnam, and now is finally starting to get moving. The idea of trying to get (the DE version of, which would be a tad larger) some sort of CVV, or conventionally powered 'medium' carrier is at the least being looked at, as one of several proposals.
(Simon waits for someone to notice that the USN has an Asiatic Fleet and a Mediterranean Fleet in addition to the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, or to notice the other hidden Easter eggs
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Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1675
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Looking ahead to 1976:
- The NYC Olympics will be rather larger than those of Montreal in scope, scale and significance, with a couple of breakout demonstration sports and plentiful new Olympic heroes
- Whilst the British Isles will have a nicely warm summer, it won’t be quite as hot as at points in our 1976, and not dry in any sense due to scheduling of rain under new weather control arrangements; there will be an uptake in air conditioning as a result of what does occur. It goes without saying that there will be no need for a Minister of Drought
- An earthquake in China will lead to some consequences, as will one in Central America and the Philippines
- Plenty of developments in space travel and some discoveries very far out
- Troubles in the Congo
- Some US railway consolidation
- Plenty of events around the US Bicentennial, including a 'tall ships' display
- Attempts at population control in some countries and the inverse elsewhere
- More troubling rumbles in Ireland
- US and British elections; in the former case, the major Democratic candidates are RFK, James Carter and Henry Jackson
- Expansion of supersonic air routes, and the first of the next generation of jets
- Troubles in the Lebanon, and Syria and Iraq start dabbling
- Quite a few new films (including Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis) and television series (including one about masters of some sort of universe), and the first few noteworthy computer games
- Something different in Uruguay
- Rather different UEFA European Football/Soccer Championships
- Some advances in arcane replicators and theoretical work on direct neural interfaces
- Some sinister developments in Italy and Spain, and ballistic developments in the former
- A few terrorist incidents and responses
- New underground trains in a few places, including the Antipodes, some major rail works in London, and a heady combination of Swissmetro and Transrapid Monorail. To cap off the rail developments, there will be a bit of a review of steam vs electric vs diesel
- Establishment of the precursor to Costco
- A different result of an American Legion convention
- The Son of Sam
- Another intriguing year of Test Cricket, with the top echelon of the Windies, Australia, England, South Africa and India being disrupted by an extraordinary run of good form by the U.S. cricket team
- Big Ben gets stuck
- Different developments regarding the regulation of tobacco advertising in a different health world, along with declining rates of smoking
- A MiG-25 defects
- The first Canada Cup
- Argentina swings towards a bit more autocracy, with consequences
- Discovery of several new species, including apes
- The highest economic growth of the decade for a few states
- An absence of no-fault divorce in the Western world
- Food trends head in a different way to both nouvelle cuisine and hyper-processed/fast foods. There will be some interesting developments in American food in its traditional sense (not the various hybrid types, such as the Frenchified stuff of Julia Child or the mainstreaming of Italian dishes), and counterparts in Britain and in Europe. Molecular gastronomy gets a start
- Japan and the USSR come to terms
- A strike in Britain results in novel action
- Wales wins the Grand Slam
- The House of Commons rejects a bill banning corporal punishment in schools
- Some moves on the law of the sea
- Refurbishment of the chain of twelve naval and four army Maunsell Forts in the Thames Estuary
- An incident in Djibouti
- Discovery of exoplanets in the Alpha Centauri system
- Continuation of the fusion revolution
- An asteroid is intercepted in a test
- The Pragger Wagger gets a destroyer
- Sal Mineo fights off a mugger
- A new Tolkien novel
- Domestication of the zebra
- Seat belts and other car safety measures
- French riots against cheap foreign wine
- Changes on the Politburo, including more allies of the General Secretary
- Biafra heats up again
- A meteor shower over China has some interesting effects
- Permanent ski resorts open in Scotland and Wales
- Advances in cryogenic sleep
- First sighting of the Cornish Owlman
- Opening of Windows on the World
- The US begins a substantive armament programme
- British Commonwealth cooperation with CERN
- Che Guevara strikes again
- Jim Jones arrested for heresy
- With continued peace in South Vietnam, the US garrison is reduced slightly
- An American balloonist is rescued by a Soviet freighter after crashing
- A drunk Soviet border guard shoots 6 Estonians
- Some Mexican Communists make a very big mistake
- A boy goes missing and Elvis is on the case
- The 1500th anniversary of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire gets marked by historians
- A wedding between current and former royals
- There will be a host of new helicopters, planes, trains, cars and military equipment
- A minor disease outbreak in the Ebola River valley is resolved quickly through the advice of Tarzan
- Establishment of the Nuclear Emergency Search Team
- More craziness from the Central African Empire
- Britain won't be going to the IMF for a loan
- The NYC Olympics will be rather larger than those of Montreal in scope, scale and significance, with a couple of breakout demonstration sports and plentiful new Olympic heroes
- Whilst the British Isles will have a nicely warm summer, it won’t be quite as hot as at points in our 1976, and not dry in any sense due to scheduling of rain under new weather control arrangements; there will be an uptake in air conditioning as a result of what does occur. It goes without saying that there will be no need for a Minister of Drought
- An earthquake in China will lead to some consequences, as will one in Central America and the Philippines
- Plenty of developments in space travel and some discoveries very far out
- Troubles in the Congo
- Some US railway consolidation
- Plenty of events around the US Bicentennial, including a 'tall ships' display
- Attempts at population control in some countries and the inverse elsewhere
- More troubling rumbles in Ireland
- US and British elections; in the former case, the major Democratic candidates are RFK, James Carter and Henry Jackson
- Expansion of supersonic air routes, and the first of the next generation of jets
- Troubles in the Lebanon, and Syria and Iraq start dabbling
- Quite a few new films (including Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis) and television series (including one about masters of some sort of universe), and the first few noteworthy computer games
- Something different in Uruguay
- Rather different UEFA European Football/Soccer Championships
- Some advances in arcane replicators and theoretical work on direct neural interfaces
- Some sinister developments in Italy and Spain, and ballistic developments in the former
- A few terrorist incidents and responses
- New underground trains in a few places, including the Antipodes, some major rail works in London, and a heady combination of Swissmetro and Transrapid Monorail. To cap off the rail developments, there will be a bit of a review of steam vs electric vs diesel
- Establishment of the precursor to Costco
- A different result of an American Legion convention
- The Son of Sam
- Another intriguing year of Test Cricket, with the top echelon of the Windies, Australia, England, South Africa and India being disrupted by an extraordinary run of good form by the U.S. cricket team
- Big Ben gets stuck
- Different developments regarding the regulation of tobacco advertising in a different health world, along with declining rates of smoking
- A MiG-25 defects
- The first Canada Cup
- Argentina swings towards a bit more autocracy, with consequences
- Discovery of several new species, including apes
- The highest economic growth of the decade for a few states
- An absence of no-fault divorce in the Western world
- Food trends head in a different way to both nouvelle cuisine and hyper-processed/fast foods. There will be some interesting developments in American food in its traditional sense (not the various hybrid types, such as the Frenchified stuff of Julia Child or the mainstreaming of Italian dishes), and counterparts in Britain and in Europe. Molecular gastronomy gets a start
- Japan and the USSR come to terms
- A strike in Britain results in novel action
- Wales wins the Grand Slam
- The House of Commons rejects a bill banning corporal punishment in schools
- Some moves on the law of the sea
- Refurbishment of the chain of twelve naval and four army Maunsell Forts in the Thames Estuary
- An incident in Djibouti
- Discovery of exoplanets in the Alpha Centauri system
- Continuation of the fusion revolution
- An asteroid is intercepted in a test
- The Pragger Wagger gets a destroyer
- Sal Mineo fights off a mugger
- A new Tolkien novel
- Domestication of the zebra
- Seat belts and other car safety measures
- French riots against cheap foreign wine
- Changes on the Politburo, including more allies of the General Secretary
- Biafra heats up again
- A meteor shower over China has some interesting effects
- Permanent ski resorts open in Scotland and Wales
- Advances in cryogenic sleep
- First sighting of the Cornish Owlman
- Opening of Windows on the World
- The US begins a substantive armament programme
- British Commonwealth cooperation with CERN
- Che Guevara strikes again
- Jim Jones arrested for heresy
- With continued peace in South Vietnam, the US garrison is reduced slightly
- An American balloonist is rescued by a Soviet freighter after crashing
- A drunk Soviet border guard shoots 6 Estonians
- Some Mexican Communists make a very big mistake
- A boy goes missing and Elvis is on the case
- The 1500th anniversary of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire gets marked by historians
- A wedding between current and former royals
- There will be a host of new helicopters, planes, trains, cars and military equipment
- A minor disease outbreak in the Ebola River valley is resolved quickly through the advice of Tarzan
- Establishment of the Nuclear Emergency Search Team
- More craziness from the Central African Empire
- Britain won't be going to the IMF for a loan
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1675
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
US Budget 1975
GDP: $3,282,717,168,931
Defense: $334,837,151,230.96 (10.2%)
Medicare and Health: $98,481,515,067.93 (3%)
Social Security: 32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Education: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Veterans Affairs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Space: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Energy: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Interest: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Income Security: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
Transport: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
General Government: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
International Affairs: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Interior, Natural Resources and Environment: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Agriculture: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Science and Technology: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Housing and Urban Development: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Commerce: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Labor: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Justice: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Security: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Magic: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Other: $6,565,434,337.86 (0.2%)
Total: $809,189,782,141.49 (24.65% of GDP)
Revenue
Income Tax: $328,271,716,893.1 (10%)
Social Security/Payroll: $196,963,030,135.86 (6%)
Corporate Tax: $147,722,272,601.9 (4.5%)
Federal Sales Tax: $82,067,929,223.27 (2.5%)
Capital Gains Tax: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Excise: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Tariffs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Estate Taxes: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Customs Duties: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Total: $869,920,049,766.72 (26.5%)
Other Receipts: $62,371,626,209.69 (1.9%)
Total Revenue: $932,291,675,976.41
Surplus: $123,101,893,834.92
(Transfer to the United States Sovereign Wealth Fund: $23 billion)
US National Debt: $791 billion (23.95% vs 24.5%)
Defense: The Reagan Administration, should it be successful in reelection as currently projected, plans to continue steady increases to the general National Defense budget to facilitate increased pay for servicemen and servicewomen; procurement of the next generation of weapons systems and continued R&D into the one afterwards; construction of certain new bases and improvement of existing facilities; and improved maintenance budgets for existing weapons stocks. There are concurrent hopes that defense expenditures can gradually shrink as an overall portion of national wealth as the post-Vietnam period continues to emerge.
Medicare and Health: Whilst were proposals for specific taxes to cover the Universal Health Care scheme known as Medicare, these were abandoned in favour of its operational cost being covered out of general taxation in the last term of the Kennedy Administration. The first few years have seen some teething problems for the system, but it is seen as robust enough by most Americans; in addition to the universal public health care system, there remains the capacity to purchase private health insurance for additional medical services, choice of doctors and other individual benefits, with the hybrid public/private system being accepted by the Republican Party at this time.
Social Security: 62,174,960 million Americans are aged over 65 and receive Social Security benefits of $250 per month, which is covered entirely from Social Security payroll taxation, with the ~$10.438 billion difference being rolled over into the trust fund. Additional budgetary allocation for Social Security purposes goes towards the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund under SSDI and the SSI program. (Note that whilst the amount of maximum monthly benefit is broadly analogous to the historical 1975 rate of $207, the value of the US dollar is sufficiently stronger such that it is the equivalent of ~ $400 in historical Earthly value)
Education: A creation of the Roosevelt Administration in 1906, the Federal Department of Education has its role in funding college education for the 24 million tertiary students across the United States, with elementary and secondary education being covered by state and local government.
Veteran's Affairs: The Department of Veterans Affairs is responsible for payments to the 1.2 million surviving veterans of the Great War, the 19 million surviving veterans of the Second World War, the 5.62 million veterans of the Korean War and now the 6.4 million veterans of the Vietnam War. Spending is due to rise with an addition $200 monthly pension to be paid to First World War veterans from 1975, whilst standard rates are fixed on three income bands, with further coverage for widows and orphans.
Space: NASA and the US Space Force are covered by this budgetary spending, with the latter also receiving certain operational funding from the Other line of National Defense spending; it is intended for the USSF to be funded by general defense spending by 1979, freeing up general space funding for NASA's ever-expanding budget.
Energy: The Atomic Energy Commission takes up a large part of Energy funding, along with National Laboratories, the Tennessee Valley Authority and other related entities. The high cost of the fusion revolution is due to see continued spending in this area for some time to come, but there is a general goal of seeing the private sector take up the burden in the future.
Interest: The current rate of interest for the National Debt is set to drop with further reduction in the general principal and with economic growth shrinking the value of the remainder as a percentage of national wealth.
Income Security: This budget line covers unemployment benefits (with the current unemployment rate of 1.8% of the labour force of 179 million, just over 3.2 million are in receipt of $42 per week of Federal Supplementary Benefit in addition to what is provided by the states), child benefits for some of the 87 million Americans under 18, and assorted other payments.
Transport: The construction of the US Interstate Highway System is largely complete, but sections of the concurrent US Interstate Railways programme are still being finished, whilst the Coast Guard and the U.S. Transport Security Police are also administered under the agency.
General Government: This budget line covers the majority of the Federal Civil Service, along with certain lines which cover part of the $25 billion intelligence budget (equivalent to $240 billion in 2025, and covering $9 billion/$86.4 billion for CIA, $5 billion/$48 billion for NSA, $5 billion/$48 billion for FBI counterintelligence and the remainder for assorted other agencies), and the Treasury.
International Affairs: This covers not only the Department of State's Foreign Service and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, but the Freedom Corps, the US Information Agency, Radio Free Europe and USAIDs budget of $6.85 billion (South Vietnam receiving $800 million in 1975, followed by $400 million for Cambodia and South Laos, $250 million for Thailand, Malaya, Taiwan and Korea, $200 million for Israel, Portugal, the Philippines and the Congo, $150 million for Tibet and India, $125 million for South Africa, Persia, Rhodesia and Bulgaria, $100 million for Hong Kong, Indonesia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Jordan, Arabia, Syria and Yugoslavia, $75 million for Newfoundland, Albania, Morocco, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Bolivia, $50 million for Yemen, Madagascar, Kenya, Tanganyika, Senegambia, Chad, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, Yucatan, Los Altos, Guatemala, the West Indies Federation, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, Paraguay, Aranguay, Uruguay, Finland, Ruritania and Austria-Hungary). Additional US aid is provided through the National Defense Budget and other means.
Interior: The US Department of the Interior is responsible for the nation's dams, the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the EPA and assorted other institutions.
Agriculture: This budget line covers farm aid and subsidies through relevant farm bills, food stamp programmes, food aid and agricultural and foodstuff regulations.
Science and Technology: This new agency, under the auspices of the Department of Commerce, provides access to investment capital for emergent technological companies, funds research and takes other measures to preserve America's perceived edge in high technology.
Housing and Urban Development: Slum clearance and urban regeneration has been a strong focus of all administrations since the War, and this is set to continue into the future. Currently headed by Martin Luther King.
Security: The Department of Security covers the Federal Civil Defense Administration, border protection, the Secret Service, the even more clandestine Bureau of National Security and assorted other men in black suits.
Commerce, Labor and Justice: These cover the requisite Departments, including the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in the latter case.
Appendix 1
Defense Budget Breakdown:
USAF: $108,329,666,574.72 (3.3%)
USN: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
US Army: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
Other: $22,979,020,182.517 (0.7%)
US Army Totals
Personnel: $35,617,481,282.9 (35%)
Operations and Maintenance: $26,458,700,381.58 (26%)
Procurement: $24,423,415,736.84 (24%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
USAF Totals
Personnel: $32,498,899,972.42 (30%)
Operations and Maintenance: $32,498,899,972.42 (30%)
Procurement: $28,165,713,309.43 (26%)
R&D: $13,541,208,321.84 (12.5%)
Other: $1,624,944,998.62 (1.5%)
USN Totals
Personnel: $29,511,627,348.69 (29%)
Operations and Maintenance: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
Procurement: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
GDP: $3,282,717,168,931
Defense: $334,837,151,230.96 (10.2%)
Medicare and Health: $98,481,515,067.93 (3%)
Social Security: 32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Education: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Veterans Affairs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Space: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Energy: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Interest: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Income Security: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
Transport: $24,620,378,766.98 (0.75%)
General Government: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
International Affairs: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Interior, Natural Resources and Environment: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Agriculture: $16,413,585,844.66 (0.5%)
Science and Technology: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Housing and Urban Development: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Commerce: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Labor: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Justice: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Security: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Magic: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Other: $6,565,434,337.86 (0.2%)
Total: $809,189,782,141.49 (24.65% of GDP)
Revenue
Income Tax: $328,271,716,893.1 (10%)
Social Security/Payroll: $196,963,030,135.86 (6%)
Corporate Tax: $147,722,272,601.9 (4.5%)
Federal Sales Tax: $82,067,929,223.27 (2.5%)
Capital Gains Tax: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Excise: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Tariffs: $32,827,171,689.31 (1%)
Estate Taxes: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Customs Duties: $8,206,792,922.33 (0.25%)
Total: $869,920,049,766.72 (26.5%)
Other Receipts: $62,371,626,209.69 (1.9%)
Total Revenue: $932,291,675,976.41
Surplus: $123,101,893,834.92
(Transfer to the United States Sovereign Wealth Fund: $23 billion)
US National Debt: $791 billion (23.95% vs 24.5%)
Defense: The Reagan Administration, should it be successful in reelection as currently projected, plans to continue steady increases to the general National Defense budget to facilitate increased pay for servicemen and servicewomen; procurement of the next generation of weapons systems and continued R&D into the one afterwards; construction of certain new bases and improvement of existing facilities; and improved maintenance budgets for existing weapons stocks. There are concurrent hopes that defense expenditures can gradually shrink as an overall portion of national wealth as the post-Vietnam period continues to emerge.
Medicare and Health: Whilst were proposals for specific taxes to cover the Universal Health Care scheme known as Medicare, these were abandoned in favour of its operational cost being covered out of general taxation in the last term of the Kennedy Administration. The first few years have seen some teething problems for the system, but it is seen as robust enough by most Americans; in addition to the universal public health care system, there remains the capacity to purchase private health insurance for additional medical services, choice of doctors and other individual benefits, with the hybrid public/private system being accepted by the Republican Party at this time.
Social Security: 62,174,960 million Americans are aged over 65 and receive Social Security benefits of $250 per month, which is covered entirely from Social Security payroll taxation, with the ~$10.438 billion difference being rolled over into the trust fund. Additional budgetary allocation for Social Security purposes goes towards the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund under SSDI and the SSI program. (Note that whilst the amount of maximum monthly benefit is broadly analogous to the historical 1975 rate of $207, the value of the US dollar is sufficiently stronger such that it is the equivalent of ~ $400 in historical Earthly value)
Education: A creation of the Roosevelt Administration in 1906, the Federal Department of Education has its role in funding college education for the 24 million tertiary students across the United States, with elementary and secondary education being covered by state and local government.
Veteran's Affairs: The Department of Veterans Affairs is responsible for payments to the 1.2 million surviving veterans of the Great War, the 19 million surviving veterans of the Second World War, the 5.62 million veterans of the Korean War and now the 6.4 million veterans of the Vietnam War. Spending is due to rise with an addition $200 monthly pension to be paid to First World War veterans from 1975, whilst standard rates are fixed on three income bands, with further coverage for widows and orphans.
Space: NASA and the US Space Force are covered by this budgetary spending, with the latter also receiving certain operational funding from the Other line of National Defense spending; it is intended for the USSF to be funded by general defense spending by 1979, freeing up general space funding for NASA's ever-expanding budget.
Energy: The Atomic Energy Commission takes up a large part of Energy funding, along with National Laboratories, the Tennessee Valley Authority and other related entities. The high cost of the fusion revolution is due to see continued spending in this area for some time to come, but there is a general goal of seeing the private sector take up the burden in the future.
Interest: The current rate of interest for the National Debt is set to drop with further reduction in the general principal and with economic growth shrinking the value of the remainder as a percentage of national wealth.
Income Security: This budget line covers unemployment benefits (with the current unemployment rate of 1.8% of the labour force of 179 million, just over 3.2 million are in receipt of $42 per week of Federal Supplementary Benefit in addition to what is provided by the states), child benefits for some of the 87 million Americans under 18, and assorted other payments.
Transport: The construction of the US Interstate Highway System is largely complete, but sections of the concurrent US Interstate Railways programme are still being finished, whilst the Coast Guard and the U.S. Transport Security Police are also administered under the agency.
General Government: This budget line covers the majority of the Federal Civil Service, along with certain lines which cover part of the $25 billion intelligence budget (equivalent to $240 billion in 2025, and covering $9 billion/$86.4 billion for CIA, $5 billion/$48 billion for NSA, $5 billion/$48 billion for FBI counterintelligence and the remainder for assorted other agencies), and the Treasury.
International Affairs: This covers not only the Department of State's Foreign Service and the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, but the Freedom Corps, the US Information Agency, Radio Free Europe and USAIDs budget of $6.85 billion (South Vietnam receiving $800 million in 1975, followed by $400 million for Cambodia and South Laos, $250 million for Thailand, Malaya, Taiwan and Korea, $200 million for Israel, Portugal, the Philippines and the Congo, $150 million for Tibet and India, $125 million for South Africa, Persia, Rhodesia and Bulgaria, $100 million for Hong Kong, Indonesia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Jordan, Arabia, Syria and Yugoslavia, $75 million for Newfoundland, Albania, Morocco, Tunisia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan, Mexico and Bolivia, $50 million for Yemen, Madagascar, Kenya, Tanganyika, Senegambia, Chad, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Honduras, Yucatan, Los Altos, Guatemala, the West Indies Federation, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, Paraguay, Aranguay, Uruguay, Finland, Ruritania and Austria-Hungary). Additional US aid is provided through the National Defense Budget and other means.
Interior: The US Department of the Interior is responsible for the nation's dams, the Forest Service, the National Park Service, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the EPA and assorted other institutions.
Agriculture: This budget line covers farm aid and subsidies through relevant farm bills, food stamp programmes, food aid and agricultural and foodstuff regulations.
Science and Technology: This new agency, under the auspices of the Department of Commerce, provides access to investment capital for emergent technological companies, funds research and takes other measures to preserve America's perceived edge in high technology.
Housing and Urban Development: Slum clearance and urban regeneration has been a strong focus of all administrations since the War, and this is set to continue into the future. Currently headed by Martin Luther King.
Security: The Department of Security covers the Federal Civil Defense Administration, border protection, the Secret Service, the even more clandestine Bureau of National Security and assorted other men in black suits.
Commerce, Labor and Justice: These cover the requisite Departments, including the FBI and other law enforcement agencies in the latter case.
Appendix 1
Defense Budget Breakdown:
USAF: $108,329,666,574.72 (3.3%)
USN: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
US Army: $101,764,232,236.86 (3.1%)
Other: $22,979,020,182.517 (0.7%)
US Army Totals
Personnel: $35,617,481,282.9 (35%)
Operations and Maintenance: $26,458,700,381.58 (26%)
Procurement: $24,423,415,736.84 (24%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)
USAF Totals
Personnel: $32,498,899,972.42 (30%)
Operations and Maintenance: $32,498,899,972.42 (30%)
Procurement: $28,165,713,309.43 (26%)
R&D: $13,541,208,321.84 (12.5%)
Other: $1,624,944,998.62 (1.5%)
USN Totals
Personnel: $29,511,627,348.69 (29%)
Operations and Maintenance: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
Procurement: $28,493,985,026.32 (28%)
R&D: $12,720,529,029.61 (12.5%)
Other: $2,544,105,805.92 (2.5%)