TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Stories from the TIPOTSverse
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MKSheppard
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TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

The TIPOTS Timeline:

Nineteenth Century

January 1, 1862: Seamus Patrick Shannon is born in County Cork, Ireland. He will immigrate to the US with his parents when he is 10. They will settle in Houston, where Seamus’ father Donald will go to work for what will eventually become the Texaco Oil Company. The Shannons are poor for the first few years they are in the states, but Seamus’ father Donald invests what he can in the new industry – as it turns out, a wise move.

July 2, 1865: Antoinette Catherine (Toni) Boyle is born in Houston, Texas. Her father is a respected physician and she wants very much to follow in his footsteps, but that is simply not possible for a woman in her place and time. Nursing, however, isn’t out of the question, and she becomes a highly respected nurse and midwife in the growing city.

1887: Donald Shannon’s investments pay off when the first true wells start producing in 1887, and the Shannons suddenly find themselves wealthy. Seamus’ father immediately sends his son to the University of Texas to get an engineering degree, and the young man graduates with honors in 1891.

1891: Having read Alfred T. Mahan’s The Influence Of Sea Power Upon History while at the University of Texas, Seamus Shannon decides that he wants to be a part of the growing US Navy. However, there are no regular billets open, so with some help from his father (who gets assistance from some local politicians) Shannon is commissioned in the still-new Naval Reserve as a Lieutenant. In the meantime, he works for his father’s oil company, taking a particular interest in the new technology of oil tankers. He goes to sea working as a deckhand but quickly proves his skill and ability. In two years, he is first mate on a coastal oil tanker for his father’s oil company.

1893: Seamus meets Antoinette Boyle after one of his crewmen is injured in a dockside accident and she accompanies her father to treat the man. They begin a relationship and marry on June 6th, 1895. Their first son, Matthew James Shannon, is born on September 27th, 1897.

1896: Shannon is given command of a coastal oil tanker.

September 27, 1897: Matthew James Shannon is born.

February 15, 1898: The armored cruiser Maine (ACR-1) is lost in Havana Harbor. Although it is far more likely that Maine is lost due to an accidental magazine explosion, at the time it is firmly believed that Spain has mined the ship in retaliation for the US stance against Spanish atrocities in Cuba. Lieutenant Shannon is called up, but is originally assigned to the battleship New York. Once more calling in some favors, Shannon is reassigned to take command of the torpedo boat USS Winslow (TB-5).

Counterfactual (Spanish American War 1898...and a little bit in 2205 )

May 11, 1898: The events related in TIPOTS: Counterfactual. Lieutenant Shannon wins (or may not win) the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions in the Battle of Cardenas, where he sank (or didn’t sink) a Spanish torpedo boat. Now a Lieutenant Commander, Shannon returns home a hero and takes command of his father’s small but growing fleet of tankers.

Twentieth Century

June 6, 1900: Moira Colleen Shannon is born.

January 10, 1901: The Spindletop gusher comes in, signaling the beginning of the great Texas oil boom. The Texaco Oil Company is founded almost immediately and starts buying up local companies much the same way John D. Rockefeller’s Standard Oil Company did in the East. Texaco purchases the Kerr County Oil Company not just for its oil; but also for its tanker fleet, and Shannon’s father retires a multi-millionaire. Shannon himself stays on with the new company and takes command of their growing tanker fleet.

February 15, 1903: Brian James Shannon is born.

1914: Matthew Shannon is nominated to the US Naval Academy at Annapolis, Class of ’18.

1917: The US enters World War I on April 6th. Along with many other midshipmen, Matthew Shannon is called up for duty and commissioned as a brevet Ensign. He is assigned to the infant US submarine fleet and becomes second officer aboard USS L-11 (SS-51). The L-11 serves in Ireland, and Matt Shannon gains a reputation as a highly skilled and motivated officer. By the time the war ends on November 11, 1918, Shannon has risen to the rank of Lieutenant and is in command of the new USS R-20 (SS-97). His future in the US Navy is bright.

1920: Brian Shannon follows in his brother’s footsteps and reports to the US Naval Academy, Class of ’24. He graduates in the top 10% of his class. He is assigned to the battleship Arizona as a junior gunnery officer.

1920-33: The Shannons have stellar careers in the between-the-war US Navy. James Shannon doesn’t make Lieutenant Commander until 1930, but he is given command of many new subs as they come out of the yards and gets their crews trained. In the meantime, Brian is forging a reputation as a tough but fair officer respected and admired by both his fellow officers and his crews. Although Brian doesn’t make Lieutenant until 1930, it is no reflection on him, simply a result of the parsimonious nature of the US Navy in those days. In 1933, Brian Shannon is asked to go on a temporary leave of absence due to funding cuts. He and a childhood friend join Seamus (in command of a Texaco tanker) on a trip to Cuba that fall. While there, Seamus is attacked a by a gang of toughs and Brian and his friend rescue him, getting to the US Embassy just inches ahead of the enraged hoodlums. President Franklin Roosevelt hears about the incident and brings Brian to the White House as a member of the US Navy staff there.

Piranha (Sheer fun and adventure, January 1934, up next)

January 10, 1934: Lieutenant Commander Matthew Shannon, commanding USS S-52, is lost at sea along with his boat and crew. The public is told that it was an unfortunate accident, but in reality a prototype warship being built for the Nazis has sunk S-52. The events detailed in TIPOTS: Piranha follow.

1936: Brian Shannon, now a Lieutenant Commander, returns to sea duty as Gunnery Officer aboard USS Idaho. With friends in the White House and a sterling reputation, his rise is fast, and as the USN starts to rebuild in the late 30s Shannon is tapped early for command. In 1939 he becomes XO of USS New York, then is assigned as CO of USS Texas in 1940. President Roosevelt has made it known that he would have preferred Shannon to take command of the then building USS North Carolina, but senior admirals dig their heels in, citing Shannon’s comparative youth (he is only 39, by far the youngest battleship skipper in the USN).

Those In Peril On The Sea (USS Texas vs KM Bismarck, May 1941, published)

May 1941: The Nazi battleship Bismarck makes a run for the North Atlantic convoy lanes, sinking the British battlecruiser Hood and seriously damaging the new BB Prince of Wales. Unknown to all but the highest levels of the USN, President Roosevelt has quietly ordered a backup plan to go after Bismarck in the event she should escape the British. The events of TIPOTS: Those In Peril On The Sea follow. Hitler declares war on the US before the end of May, while cancelling Operation Barbarossa in order to defeat the US and the UK. In addition, the Japanese cancel the strike on Pearl Harbor, feeling that the US will be in too high a state of readiness

Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot (England, June 1941)

June 1941: An enraged Hitler throws the U-boats against the US and Britain, telling his commanders to sink everything they can, regardless of losses. The Atlantic Fleet comes perilously close to being sent back to its ports, and the Royal Navy is barely able to stay together. Starvation rations are imposed in the United Kingdom by the end of June, and a group of Nazi sympathizers in the British government begin a conspiracy to overthrow Churchill, replace Edward VIII on the throne, and take England out of the war as a Nazi ally. The events of TIPOTS: Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot follow.

Case Vulkan (USS Texas vs Fiendish German Commandos, July-September 1941, completed)

July-September 1941: The USN, frantically transferring ships from the Pacific Fleet to the Atlantic, manages to just barely hold the line. The cost, however, is grim – two battleships seriously damaged, four cruisers sunk, dozens of destroyers sunk or critically damaged. The events of TIPOTS: Case Vulkan follow.

November 11, 1941: The Armistice Day Massacre. FDR meets with his military commanders in what is supposed to be general strategy session, but it erupts into a vicious free-for-all, with the commanders flatly accusing FDR of misleading them as to the circumstances surrounding America’s entry into the war and blaming him for the reverses they’ve taken so far. George Marshall and Ernest King are the only ones who know the true story, but as their memoirs will later show they felt betrayed by Roosevelt’s efforts to get the US into the war. In the meantime, Congress makes an attempt at impeaching Roosevelt. This will drag out until August and will eventually be dropped, but Roosevelt is almost more preoccupied with his political survival than the military situation.

Kilroy Was Here (Christmas story, 1941, published)

December 24, 1941: The events of TIPOTS/Kilroy Was Here.

We Shall Meet At Yasakune (First Philippine Sea, April 1942)

April 12, 1942: The Japanese Empire declares war on the US, UK, France, and the Netherlands. The assault begins with an all-out air attack on the Philippines by the IJN and JAAF, after which the IJN task force moves out to the Philippine Sea. Although Douglas MacArthur’s forces are well equipped, MacArthur has wasted the months he had to get his troops fortified and dug in, believing that the Japanese will attack Hong Kong or Australia. His troops are caught in their barracks, his aircraft caught on their ramps, and only the foreboding of the USN commander keeps his ships from being sunk at dockside. By the end of the third day, Japanese troops are landing in force on West and North Luzon. MacArthur is seemingly paralyzed and his subordinates, particularly General Richard Sutherland, spend more time angling for personal power instead of trying to stop the Japanese invasion. The saddest part of the entire disaster is that MacArthur had more manpower, supplies, and artillery than the invading Japanese ever did and his airpower – though qualitatively somewhat inferior – should have been more than a match if properly employed. The US immediately declares war on Japan and mobilizes the Pacific Fleet in accordance with War Plan Orange. The result is the First Battle Of The Philippine Sea and the events of TIPOTS/We Shall Meet At Yasakune follow.

May 1942: The results of First Philippine Sea are a shock and dilemma to both sides, which must now settle down to a war of vicious raids back and forth across the Pacific, with no quarter asked or given. Brutal, small-scale fleet actions will be the rule, rather than the exception. In the meantime, President Roosevelt has given absolute priority to a top-secret project that could end the war, code named Dingbat.

May 12, 1942: The war in the Pacific is under control, but farseeing officers know that even with it’s completely militarized economy, Japan cannot defeat the US. Germany, however, is another matter. The Germans have gotten their naval program underway, and U-boats are pouring out of the yards ahead of the massive surface ship program. A series of small fights mark the Battle of the Atlantic, but the real fight is against the U-boats. Recovering from the crushing blow they took in September and October of ’41, they are back with a vengeance. The USN and RN are just barely ahead of them, and Hitler knows it. The Luftwaffe, under the command of Reichluftmarschall Adolf Galland, is pounding England day and night, and US P-38s – the most advanced aircraft the USAAF can send – are still not available in enough numbers to stop them. British factories, under constant attack, are just barely making good losses. The Royal Navy has been relocated to Northern Ireland to avoid air attack, but it is still badly pummeled whenever it sorties out to meet the German fleet. The German battlewagons (TirpitzScharnhorstGneisenau and the building Hindenburg, Mackensen, and Friederich Barbarossa) sortie regularly with cruiser and destroyer support, and increasingly backed up by the carriers Graf Zeppelin and Seeadler. The governments of the US and UK are in quiet negotiations with Stalin to convince him to enter the war on their side, showing him clear evidence of the intended German invasion. However, Stalin arrogantly disdains this evidence and refuses to join the war.

Finally, on October 15th, 1942, the German fleet sorties under cover of miserable weather. The goal is to cover an invasion of Iceland, but the Allied navies must first be neutralized or blocked. Accordingly, the German First Carrier Division – Graf ZeppelinSeeadler, and Von Muller (the last two hasty merchant conversions) are sent out to draw the Allied carriers into battle and destroy them, then return to cover the invasion. Sufficient land-based air cannot reach Iceland to stop a Nazi invasion, and if Germany holds Iceland, the Atlantic supply routes will be cut.

What the Germans do not know is that British codebreakers have determined their plans and laid a brilliant trap. All the big fleet carriers in the Atlantic are out of action due to damage, but RangerWasp, and the British Eagle are sent out to intercept the German carriers. In the miserable October weather it is difficult for the fleets to find one another, but they finally do southeast of Iceland on October 18th. The Allied ships detect the Germans at extreme range and launch a dive-bomber strike and a torpedo strike that is very nearly wiped out. However, the German CAP is brought down to low level and is out of ammunition when the dive-bombers – which had momentarily gotten lost – showed up and within minutes had destroyed Seeadler and Von MullerGraf Zeppelin managed to escape into a squall and launched a strike that found Eagle and sent her to the bottom with torpedoes. The British CAP killed most of the German strike, and the next morning Ranger and Wasp found Graf Zeppelin and sent her to the bottom. The German invasion force, without air cover, must turn back for safe harbor in Norway. The result is a clear-cut strategic German defeat and the end of any hope of an all-out Kriegsmarine breakout into the Atlantic.

3 June 1942: With Japanese forces closing in on his Command Post on Bataan, General Douglas MacArthur sends his famous "Last Communique".

1943: US troops are now arriving in the UK and Ireland in sufficient numbers that Hitler knows an invasion will come eventually. However, the Allies are expecting to be able to invade in mid 1945 at the earliest. The air war is now starting to turn in favor of the Allies and the Luftwaffe is now discovering that even the superb aircraft they were sending over England cannot be produced in enough numbers to defeat the RAF and the rapidly growing US Army Air Forces UK. The new P-47 and P-51 are starting to arrive, and they are showing distinct advantages over the Luftwaffe’s FW-190s and He-277 bombers. The two air forces settle down to a back-and-forth slugging match for ultimate air superiority.

In the Pacific, the US has started going on the offensive. The US commanders in the Pacific – Chester Nimitz and George Patton – have agreed to an ‘island-hopping’ strategy that will essentially bypass the most heavily fortified Japanese islands. The first island is Guadalcanal, in the Solomons chain. The US achieves complete surprise but since neither side will risk its heavy units in the confined waters around the island, the battle is fought by small units and both sides are supplied and reinforced at night. The result is in question for more than two months, but finally Nimitz takes his chance just as the Japanese take theirs – three US battleships and their supporting forces sail into Ironbottom Sound and destroy the Japanese units there. They then provide fire support for the Marine units ashore, which then hunt down the Japanese forces to the last man. The Japanese commanders argue that this is the perfect opportunity to finish what was started at First Philippine Sea, but by the time they agree to send the Combined Fleet the US has brought enough land based air onto Guadalcanal to make any attempt at a fight suicidal.

By late 1943, the Allied air forces have finally won round-the-clock air superiority over the UK and are now starting to strike back with long-range bombing raids. The bombers, however, are taking serious losses even under escort. German technology seems to be coming up with powerful new defensive weapons at every turn, and the Allies are caught in a cycle of measure and countermeasure. However, the bombing offensive is the only way the Allies have of striking back at Germany and they can take some comfort in knowing that their growing numbers – along with the upcoming B-29 Superfortress and the planned B-36 – will eventually overwhelm the Luftwaffe.

1944: The front lines are aflame. The Allies invade North Africa in March, landing all along the Moroccan coast. Casualties are heavier than expected, especially where some Vichy French units resist. The majority of them immediately surrender to the Allies or in some cases attack the nearest German units. At first the landings are touch-and-go but once the US 1st Infantry and British 2nd Infantry secure their beachheads, there is no stopping the assault. US and UK submarines cut and then swamp the badly outnumbered and underprotected Axis supply lines.

At the same time, British forces in Egypt lunge forward, having pulled off a magnificent deception that convinced the Germans that they were incapable of any offensive action at all. Although the Afrika Korps and its Italian reserves at first stand and fight, they are quickly forced to begin a retreat towards the coast as their supply lines are strangled. By the end of June, all that remains of Axis power in Africa is a beleaguered fortress at Derna, Tripoli, and after a final assault that ends in hand-to-hand combat, DAK commander Erwin Rommel is killed leading a final defense of his HQ near the Old Fort. The DAK surrenders the next morning, and more than 100,000 German and Italian soldiers go into captivity.

Hitler is furious, and the loss of the admired and respected Rommel angers the German general staff. Even the most ardent Nazis now feel that Hitler and his policies are leading Germany to disaster, and a resistance group forms among the senior German generals and admirals. Gestapo chief Reinhard Heydrich knows that Hitler’s influence is starting to slip – and that means Heydrich’s survival is at stake, as the Nazi inner circle loathes him and Hitler’s aide Martin Bormann. Heydrich conducts a reign of terror that has almost the opposite effect of that intended – the average German now starts to question Hitler for the first time.

The Vichy Fleet, supported by some light Kriegsmarine units, sorties to meet the Allied fleet following the invasion of Morocco. The partially completed Jean Bart and the RN battleship Lion met and it was no contest – Lion sent Jean Bart to the bottom with just four salvos. Once North Africa is secured, the RN sails into the Med in full strength to take on the surviving Vichy fleet and the Italian Navy. The Vichy ships mutiny and some try to escape to join the Allies, but they are destroyed by German aircraft.

However, land-based Allied air is protecting the RN and its supporting USN units and the Luftwaffe strains but cannot crack the fleet’s airborne shield. The Italian Navy is ordered out to meet the Mediterranean Fleet, and they collide near the island of Lampedusa on June 2nd. The first Italian task force conducts itself well and gives as good as it gets against the lead RN units before falling back towards Italy. However, as they withdraw, HMS Warspite manages to put a single round through Gulio Ceasare at just over 26,000 yards, a record that stood until 1991. The hit detonates Ceasare’s aft magazines and she is blown apart. The orderly Italian withdrawal becomes a rout that only grows worse when Allied air catches the second Italian task force steaming in daylight in a peacetime formation. Though the Allied aircraft take fairly heavy losses, they sink the battleships Roma and Comte De Cavour along with several other cruisers and destroyers. This was too much for the survivors and they sail out to meet the RN with white flags at their masts. Following the loss of the bulk of the Italian Army in North Africa, this is intolerable – the senior Italian military commanders begin to speak openly of a coup.

Mussolini escapes Rome and flees to Germany after turning the government over to the former King. On June 9th, Italy formally withdraws from the Axis and requests an armistice. The Allies are wary, but grant the Armistice a few days later. With the exception of a few token air and ground units, Italy sits out the rest of the war. However, German and Italian units still hold out on Sicily.

In the Pacific, the US is marching steadily towards Japan. Bougainville falls after the Marines spring a surprise – the Mk 1 Mod 0 Marine Armor suit, reverse engineered from the Stormtrooper armor captured at Hampton Roads. The Army has declined to use it, feeling that it will make troops less aggressive. But the Marines realize that even with the problems it has (US Scientists do not have the same experience with ceramics that the Germans do, and they have problems creating the advanced compound armor that a new generation of suits will require – the first production runs are brittle and prone to cracking and fracturing when being bounced on landing craft) it is exactly what they will need to crack the hyper-fortified Japanese island fortresses. The Marines have thrown a new wrinkle into it – the Mod 1 Command Suit, which has a built in IR viewer and radio. Difficult to move around in, the Marines discover that the ‘Super Tin Man’ gives them the ability to fight around the clock, keeping the Japanese from ever regaining the initiative.

The Japanese are terrified of the ‘Iron Demons’ to the point where mass surrenders are now happening on a regular basis. At sea, the Imperial Navy is now starting to fall back. Although the IJN has been able to complete the three Yamatos and three more of the smaller Kyushu class BBs (KyushuSatsuma, and Ryukyu - assembled from Yamato spares and materials, they were more properly classed as BC’s), and even refitted the old dreadnaught Settsu, the USN has brought all six of the Iowas into service and has launched the first two Montanas.

(And since you're all going to ask....)
Japanese Battleships 1944

Yamato
Musashi
Shinano
Settsu
Kyushu
Satsuma
Ryukyu
Ise
Hyuga
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuso!
Yamashiro
Nagato
Kongo
Haruna

US Battleships Pacific 1944

Iowa
New Jersey
Missouri
Wisconsin
Illinois
Kentucky
Indiana
West Virginia
California
Maryland
Colorado
North Carolina
Washington
Massachusetts
Alabama
South Dakota
Montana (to be assigned early 45)
Ohio (to be assigned early 45)

US Battleships Atlantic 1944

Texas
Idaho
New Mexico
Mississippi
Tennessee
Arkansas
Pennsylvania
Nevada
Even after the losses at First Philippine Sea, the USN now outnumbers and outguns the Combined Fleet. The Japanese admirals, however, refuse to risk their ships one-on-one after the debacle of Ironbottom Sound, still convinced that if they can only maneuver the USN into the Decisive Battle, they can win. In the meantime, islands fall like dominos to an armored enemy who can fight around the clock and seems impervious to bullets.

Finally, Roosevelt is re-elected in November, but dies just a few days later of a stroke. A Constitutional crisis looms as Republican senators claim that Truman is not eligible to become President and that Senate President Pro Tem Arthur Vandenberg should take office. Fortunately, Roosevelt foresaw such a situation and had made the necessary arrangements – the problem is quickly thrown to Congress, which overwhelmingly names Truman President. Truman and Churchill immediately make plans for a strategy conference in Ottawa that December, to be codenamed Misteltoe. The final plans for defeat of Germany and Japan are laid down – and Truman is advised that a new weapon of unimaginable power is ready for testing in February of ’45.

Field Of Honor (Sagami Bay, 1947)

1953: National Service Act Passed in US.

Duel (USS Oregon vs Sovietsky Soyuz, 1959)

January 18, 1990: The Allied and Soviet battlelines meet for the final battle.

Nightwatch (WWIII, 1991)

1993: St. Valentine's Day Massacre. President Kerry announces the total cancellation of the Navy 2000 program which would have built over two hundred combat vessels. The only capital ships which survived the Massacre were the Intrepid class CVNs (Intrepid, Ticonderoga, Bunker Hill, Bon Homme Richard, Lake Erie, Gettysburg, Chancellorsville, Shiloh, and Antietam.), which received the long-lead time machinery from the cancelled BBGN-86 class.

Twenty-First Century

The One That Got Away (Short Story, 2005, published)

2010: HMS Dreadnought decommissioned.

The Measure Of A Man (Short Story, 2015, published)
Last edited by MKSheppard on Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
jemhouston
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline

Post by jemhouston »

Interesting times
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MKSheppard
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline

Post by MKSheppard »

Errata from old threads on TIPOTS 1944
James1978 wrote:So by the looks of things, the USN is down:

* New York - courtesy of Bismarck
* Oklahoma
* Arizona
* Indiana ??? - the US Battleship factfile list here as being surveyed in 1948, so I assume she's in the yard?

Have the Alaskas arrived yet?

Oh, when is/was Oregon laid down?

And the IJN is down:
* Mutsu
* Hiei
* Kirishima

How close are the Kyushu class BBs to the B-65 design?
Mike wrote:I KNEW I missed one - Indiana is indeed in service, I've corrected the list. The Alaskas are in service, but they were modified during construction to save materials and ended up essentially being upgunned Baltimores. The Oregons have had their design finalized and will be laid down by the end of 1945.

The Kyushus look a lot like the B-65s.

and given the stuff I've looked up on them for your question, I think we could safely say that they were built using the B-65s as a jumping off point. They ended up with more armor than the -65s would have had, but were slower than intended.

And you read correctly on the BB losses....though New York's final end is rather more chilling than you might think.
JanNiemczyk wrote:How about RN battleships in 1944? The mention of Lion suggests that we have built at least one of that class.

Any chance Vanguard will be in action before the end of the war?
Mike wrote:JN,
in the TIPOTS timeline, Vanguard doesn't get built - that was the only way I could figure out to get all of the Lions built. In TIPOTS the RN did have a plan to build a Vanguard class as a follow-on to the Lions - basically a RN-ized Montana - but they were cancelled in the financial crunch after the war. The Lions served into the early 90s, with one more BB - Dreadnaught, based on the USN's Texas BBN design - coming online in the late 60s. As of now all the Lions are gone, and Dreadnaught will be gone by 2010. As for the RN overall, from about the late 50s on it was a submarine and FFG/DDG based force with four CVs, all built in the late 50s and early 60s (a new Victorious, Triumph, Vanguard, and Ark Royal These are big CVs, slightly larger than our Midways.
JanNiemczyk wrote:Thanks for that, Mike. Was anything done with the spare turrets though? If there isn't the yard capacity for an extra BB, then maybe a couple of extra Roberts class monitors?
Mike wrote:JN-

I'm thinking that in my timeline they ended up as Coast Defense batteries - remember, in TIPOTS, Coast Artillery made a serious comeback and stayed in business until the late 90s in the US, it's reasonable to assume they would have done the same in the UK.

Mike
JanNiemczyk wrote:Makes sense, Wanstone Battery used 15in guns after all.
The only problem I'd foresee is the lack of manpower once National Service is abandoned. It was in many ways the ending of National Service that contributed to the disbanding to AA Command and the civil defence orientated Mobile Defence Command.
Even with it we had to seriously slim down our forces for economic reasons after the war. Every man in the services was one less contributing to the economy at a time when we were in dire straits.

I can't remember what happened in the Far East in TIPOTS, but depending on the situation I could see some of those spare 15in guns ending up in our colonies out there.
OTOH since Guards Van never actually fired a shot the turrets and guns may as well be spares for the QEs and R class.
Mike wrote:JN,

In the TIPOTS universe, National Service stayed in effect in the UK until the 60s, when it was replaced by voluntary service. However, all the Atlantic Alliance nations (including the US) made people wish they'd kept the draft. In the UK - as well as the US, France, and Germany - military service wasn't mandatory. However, if you didn't do military service (active duty, guard or reserves):

*You were not eligible for any college funding
*Mandatory preference for colleges
*Veterans got mandatory first preference for any job, Government or Civilian
*Vets got home loans at half the Prime Interest Rate
Along with a bunch of other goodies.

By the mid 90s, in Europe all of those had disappeared, but in the US they stuck around until after the 2000 elections. Manpower never would have really been a problem in the TIPOTS universe.

Mike
James1978 wrote:At the risk of asking you to give too much away, did any of the KGVs stay in service post-WWII? Care to say anything about French, German, & Italian battleships?

Also, you mentioned in the past that the British yards "stayed busy building smaller BBs to customer specs for India, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Holland, Denmark, Canada, Venezulela, Colombia, Morocco, Egypt, and Australia." What were these ships like?
Mike wrote:James -

Absolutely on the post-war service. All four KGVs survived the war, as did the Lions - but only the Lions were upgraded with missiles and other . What happened was that the RN did 'rolling reserve; with it's BBs. Three would always be in service, two always in upgrade or repair, and three always in mothballs. The KGVs were kept around for NGS and in case of a Steel Pact breakout through the Baltic, where their lack of AA capability and long-range missiles wouldn't be as much of a handicap.
The BBs that were built for other nations are a curious story. At one point, Atlantic Alliance planners pushed very hard for a standardized BB design, mostly for the European members - there was no way the US was going to go back to small BBs, but the Continental members simply couldn't afford the USN sized monsters, and for that matter neither could most other Allied nations.
The proposed solution was to build as the Atlantic Standard Battleship (ASBB) an upgraded version of the South Dakota class BB. With new materials and improved design - plus a modular system that enabled each nation to build every ASBB to its own standard as long as it had the same approximate tonnage limit and machinery - the SoDak was a perfect fit. The US built the first ones - Ise, Mutsu,and Nagato for Japan and Sun Yat-Sen and Taipei for Free China - but the rest were mostly built in British yards throughout the 50s except for the French and German ships. Twenty two ASBBs were built by British and US yards, while another ten were built by French and German yards. All of the nations you mentioned got some.
Simon Darkshade wrote:More fascinating tidbits. The notion of rotating BBs and ASBBs is most interesting, with the latter almost a form of battleship mass production.
I like the mention of Dreadnought which presents a most intriguing potential along with the Texas. What type of armament does she sport?

A world with BBGNs, National Service and coastal artillery is one that brings forth from me peals of approving roaring. It has an appropriate hint of common sense also, regarding a single Dreadnought coming about in the mid-late 1960s. (In the case of my own still-nebulous Dark Earth writing, RN Revenge class BBGNs appear around a similar time (first pair laid down 64) along with the Californias. Soviet, IJN, French, German and Red Chinese (under the control of a shadowy figure with long drooping moustaches) vessels follow later in the early 70s.)

Good show indeed, and eagerly anticipating more.
Mike wrote:Simon-

Thank you for the kind compliments!
As far as HMS Dreadnaught is concerned...Her origins date back to the early 60s, when the USN was laying down what was intended to be the Texas class BBNs. There were to have been at least four(with six actually projected, with the last two probably to have been Minnesota and Wyoming), but Texas suffered from cost overruns that could be most kindly described as 'nightmarish'. However, a fair amount of long-lead materials for New York(BBN-78 ) and South Carolina (BBN-79) had already been ordered, and during the economic recovery of that time, the Nixon Administration was loath to simply cancel all of the LLM orders. Salvation came from - of all places - the Royal Navy.
The RN's official policy was that BBs would be required for the 'foreseeable future' (the 1960 Defence White Paper pretty much laid this down as 'until at least 1980'), and though the Lions had plenty of stretch left in them and the KGV's were more than suitable for the defense of the UK proper, this left a percieved gap in the ability to deploy BBs to areas other than the North Atlantic and Baltic (In TIPOTS, the Falklands were always something of a hotspot, and the UK never gave up the vast majority of her colonies until the early 90s). The Dominions had ASBBs, but not enough to be able to do more than defend themselves until the RN or USN could get there. (Canada gave up her BBs in the early 60s to go for a CV based fleet). The only real solution, it was felt, was at least one and ideally two BBNs. Having had observers at Newport News during Texas' construction, they were quite confident that they could avoid the cost problems that attended that project. However, there were two problems. The RN came late to nuclear power at sea, and were not yet ready to build big warship reactors. The other problem was that the manufacturing base to make the LLMs had pretty much vanished. (The BB upgrades that were being done used US manufactured armor). The solution was to ask the Americans if something could be worked out to purchase whatever LLMs had been manufactured up to that point for the Texas class, and purchase two S7NW reactors (nicknamed the 'heir and a spare'). British shipyards and spare parts could handle the rest. Both sides were very receptive to the idea, as it insured the US manufactturing base wouldn't slip and it gave the RN the ability to get one more BB into the line. (During the discussions with Parliament, the RN always stated for the record that two BBNs were planned, but it was always assumed that only one would be built. The reasons for that particular kabuki dance was always somewhat unclear, but it appears to have been a case of the RN and MoD wanting to proclaim publicly that they could build as many ships as they wanted, but privately acknowledging that the RN would cheerfully acquiese to whatever financial constraints Parilament put on it.) Accordingly, the Naval Appropriations act of 1964 included money for the LLM and reactor purchases, along with approving one BBN to be built at John Brown and Sons Shipyard at Clydesbank. Originally, her name was to have been Queen Elizabeth II, but Her Majesty graciously suggested that since the ship signified the rebirth of the ship of the line in Royal Navy service, it should bear the name of the first and greatest of its kind. (This led to a misunderstanding at MoD which came within minutes of putting out a press release announcing that her name would be Victory, but someone caught it at the last second.)
Dreadnaught was laid down in April of 1965 at Clydesbank, and construction proceeded without major problems until her christening on October 21st, 1969. In order to insure maximum interoperability with USN facilities, her hull is essentially that of the Texas with some minor changes. She carried a main armament of twelve 16"/L45 rifles - this was intially looked at with some skepticism, because the US and Soviet standards at that point were 18" rifles (and at least one Soviet BB had 21" rifles). However, the RN had been working on the Mk14 Rocket Assisted Shell, which, though somewhat inaccurate, gave the L45s range actually in excess of the USN's 18" Dahlgren autorifles (named after the facility where they were being tested). The USN was just then starting to investigate the possibilities of rocket assisted shells, and the abilities of the Mk14 came as a pleasant surprise. (A plan to upgun Dreadnaught with Dahlgrens was cancelled in the late 80s due to budget constraints) Dreadnaught's secondary armament was 24x 6" guns. From 1972, she also carried two Harriers, offically as spotter planes.

Simon, I'm looking forward to your Dark Earth series - I actuially got some done on Case Vulkan over the weekend, perhaps this time enough to get over the writer's block. hope the above helps!

Mike
JanNiemczyk wrote:What happens to those who would like to do some form of military service, but for health reasons can't?
JN,
Somehow I managed to miss your post and questions - let me see what I can do to answer them.

The thing to keep in mind is that in TIPOTS, the post WWII economy wasn't butter with comparatively few guns - it was almost half and half. The world's economy was essentially militarized across the board to an extent that people who normally - even in a WWII type situation - wouldn't have been in the military. The US' National Service Act of 1953 was drawn up with this in mind, because it ws clear that ther was simply no way to get the levels of combat manpower needed unless women and minorities were dramatically introduced into the military, and those who otherwise wouldn't be able to serve be given a chance to fill non-combat slots. All the other nations' systems reflected this to one extent or another, especially in Europe, where population losses during WWII required some kind of drastic action simply to be able to field capable military forces. Basically, short of being bedridden, those who wished to serve but normally could not were given administrative or medical positions. These were counted as national service time for benefits. Originally, only active duty forces were included, but at the urging of a group informally known as 'the College of Cardinals' (Dwight Eisenhower, Jimmy Doolittle, Omar Bradley, Chester Nimitz, and Curtis LeMay), Reserve, Guard and State Militia forces were added in 1958 and later law enforcement, fire, EMT, medical (Dr/RN), teaching and some scientific disciplines were added to the list. In other nations, Territorial units and reserves were included from the beginning, as were the other occupations that were only later added to the NSA.

A better way to put it is that in TIPOTS, you would have almost certainly been able to take Her Majesty's shilling and have a long, proud career. :)
James1978 wrote:Was there ever an RN equivalent to the cancelled USN Alasaka class battleships, or had the RN already decided that carriers were indeed the future?

What battleships did the Italians keep post-war and did they ever build new ones?

Canada gave up her BBs in the early 60s to go for a CV based fleet

So were these ships ASBBs or something else?

Would it be asking too much to ask what non-USN/RN battleships/battlecruisers made it through WWII?
Mike wrote:James -

Canada got two ASBBs, HMCS Canada and HMCS Quebec. The RCN would have loved more, but as a practical matter there was no real need for it as long as the USN and RN still had battle lines. The ASBBs also tended to be a little manpower intensive, and when the RCN increased the size of its carrier force they needed the bodies. The Italians kept all of their surviving BBs and scrapped the oldest ones - Andrea Doria, Caio Dulio - and mothballed Littorio and Vittorio Veneto - while redesigning and modifying the incomplete Impero (renamed Giuseppe Garibaldi) Once Garibaldi was completed, Vittorio Veneto was brought up to the same design, using Littorio as a parts hulk. In the late 50s, Italy got Canada and Quebec and renamed them Cristoforo Colombo and Leonardo Da Vinci. The older BBs served until the late 60s, and the other two served until 1993.

Now, as far as I know, the RN never came up with anything exactly the equivalent of the Alaskas, so I'd say no. And as far as what survived....well, the Japanese and Germans lost 'em ALL...and the Germans did get three of the H class.
James1978 wrote:Thanks. Out of curiosity, how long did Yavuz hang around in TIPOTSverse.

Now, as far as I know, the RN never came up with anything exactly the equivalent of the Alaskas, so I'd say no.

So by the time the 1980s rolled around, everyone but the USN and the Soviets had been priced out of the new BB market and were already moving toward carriers? Was the BBGN-86 class ever laid down?
Mike wrote:James -

In TIPOTS, Yavuz is a museum in Hamburg. :)

Saying that everybody was being priced out of BBs is a pretty good way to put it. When the Soviet and Allied battle lines met on January 18, 1990, most nations had gotten rid of their BBs because they simply couldn't afford them any more. Carriers became the new capital ships by default. Even the US and RN understood that their days were numbered, and the RN probably would have scrapped the battle line by the mid 90s, war or not. And I should point out that the ships themselves were affordable, though the ASBBs were starting to get a bit long in the tooth, and there were a couple of BBs out there approaching seventy years old and rebuilds/replacements weren't likely. The killer cost was the manpower.

The -86s were the great what-ifs of the late TIPOTS universe. The long-lead materials had been ordered and the keel laying for Alaska was intended for Navy Day, 1993. But the results of the '91 war pretty much left the Battle Line without an enemy, and when John Kerry was elected President in '92, he was committed to cutting the defense budget as far as he dared. The result was the St. Valentine Day's Massacre, when Kerry announced the total cancellation of the Navy 2000 program that would have built over two hundred combat vessels. The -86s were at the top of his list. The only capital ships that survived were the Intrepid class CVNs (Intrepid, Ticonderoga, Bunker Hill, Bon Homme Richard, Lake Erie, Gettysburg, Chancellorsville, Shiloh, and Antietam.) They got the materials and reactors from the -86s.
JNiemczyk wrote:Mike, I've been re-reading this and spotted something amiss in the story of how the UK procured HMS Dreadnought. You've described it in very American terms, e.g. Naval Appropriations Act.

My understanding of how the MoD works is that it does not go to Parliament for budget aproval, but to the Treasury. Military projects tend to stand, or fall depending on whether the Chancellor likes them. It would be rare for Parliament to pass an act specific to military procurement.

There has been no CVF legislation, for example. MoD made the announcement, set the budget and made sure it asked the Treasury for lots of money.

AFAIK the Army Act is the only military legislation to be passed regularly by Parliament.
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by James1978 »

I don't suppose you saved the Nightwatch chapters that Mike wrote?
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

Too "new" for me to save. :(
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by Belushi TD »

Question about the Japanese BBs during WWII. Your fact file above shows the following:

Yamato
Musashi
Shinano
Settsu
Kyushu
Satsuma
Ryukyu

The first three are of the Yamato class.

There are four of the next group. I was under the impression that there were only three of that class. Is there another ship of an oddball class, or am I wrong and there's four of either the Yamato or the smaller BB class?

Thanks
Belushi TD
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MikeKozlowski »

Belushi TD wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:26 am Question about the Japanese BBs during WWII. Your fact file above shows the following:

Yamato
Musashi
Shinano
Settsu
Kyushu
Satsuma
Ryukyu

The first three are of the Yamato class.

There are four of the next group. I was under the impression that there were only three of that class. Is there another ship of an oddball class, or am I wrong and there's four of either the Yamato or the smaller BB class?

Thanks
Belushi TD
Belushi,

The three Yamatos were all built as BBs. Settsu was an older dreadnaught refitted to give her at least some chance in the line, and the Kyushus were assembled from Yamato spares and other odds and ends. For internal political reasons, they were classified as BBs but were closer to BCs, and postwar scholarship has argued about if they were actually overgunned CAs.

Mike
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by Simon Darkshade »

A question comes to mind - What was the name of the US ‘secret police’ under G.Gordon Liddy?
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MikeKozlowski »

Simon Darkshade wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:30 pm A question comes to mind - What was the name of the US ‘secret police’ under G.Gordon Liddy?

Simon,

My apologies in taking so long to get back to you on this. The Department Of Homeland Security is responsible for counterintelligence work in the US at this point, and has been since 1961. Richard Nixon, when briefed about the FBI's failure to catch the spy in the cabinet, vowed to take the job away from Hoover's FBI and created DHS on his first day in office. Hoover's tradition was to ritually submit his resignation to each incoming President, who would then pat him on the shoulder and tell him to continue working. Nixon did no such thing, and insured Hoover would cooperate by making it clear that the new Republican majorities on Capitol Hill would be holding hearings if necessary to look into things. On the other hand, if Hoover cooperated, he could stay on at FBI.

Hoover cooperated.

Nixon's team knew that Liddy, who had run one of the CI teams at FBI, had forcefully argued that there had to be a spy somewhere in the Executive Branch, but Hoover not only didn't want to hear it but had exiled Liddy to Oklahoma to shut him up. Liddy was eager to get to work when the post was offered, and was sworn in on May 8th, 1961. He remained in charge until 1992.

Liddy tended to remain out of the spotlight as much as possible, unlike Hoover. His political enemies decried him as a deranged fascist bent on destroying the Constitution, but when dealing face to face with Congress he cultivated an urbane, intellectual, and slightly menacing air that his opponents never cracked. He also created the Special Security Teams, which investigated not only spies but American dissidents of all types. (The SSTs were stood down in 1991.)

Mike
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by S. Murray »

Mike,

So what happened to New York? Did she make it Iceland and eventual repairs, or founder along the way?
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MikeKozlowski »

S. Murray wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:23 pm Mike,

So what happened to New York? Did she make it Iceland and eventual repairs, or founder along the way?
...Shannon,

New York made it home in one piece, but she was badly battered enough that with newer ships in the pipeline that the decision was made to lay her up as spares for Texas and the other dreadnaughts. She remained anchored at Norfolk until late 1945 when she was towed to San Diego. There, she was secured under guard for several weeks then towed away on New Years' Day 1946. Until the 1960s, the USN would simply say that she had been expended as a target, but in the early 70s it was revealed that she was several targets for the test of the first US nuclear weapon in the Solomon Islands (code name DINGBAT PRIME) in the spring of 1946.

Mike
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by James1978 »

So in TIPOTSverse, we hauled The Gadget all the way out to the Solomon Islands instead of testing it in the New Mexico desert?
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MikeKozlowski »

James1978 wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:33 pm So in TIPOTSverse, we hauled The Gadget all the way out to the Solomon Islands instead of testing it in the New Mexico desert?
James,

That they did - the US bases in the Solomons had long since lost their immediate utility and had become (for all intents and purposes) backwaters that really did nothing except soak up manpower, supplies, and money. But they were also - in classic US fashion - heavily overbuilt, the near equal of anything stateside and far in excess in survivability of anything the Japanese had. The generals and admirals read in on the bomb were skeptical to the last as to how effective it would be so they insisted that the first test be against military grade targets.

The Solomons were sufficiently built up to meet that requirement, and the comparitively few native residents could be moved far enough away that all they would ever see/hear could be explained as a violent storm, ammo dump explosion, or some other vaguely believable excuse. The scientists were deeply concerned about issues with taking the Dingbat all the way to the Solomons Islands Instrumentation Range (the cover story) but the FOs dug in their heels.

Mike
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by Lordroel »

MKSheppard wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:09 am The TIPOTS Timeline:


In the Pacific, the US is marching steadily towards Japan. Bougainville falls after the Marines spring a surprise – the Mk 1 Mod 0 Marine Armor suit, reverse engineered from the Stormtrooper armor captured at Hampton Roads.
As part pf April 1, War Thunder has introduced the Mobile Infantry, wich i can see as present day Marine Armor suit of TIPOTS.

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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

Found an old MikeK post:
Random questions about TIPOTS

NOTE: I thought about continuing this line of questioning in the previous thread, but then I realized it's been a few months since the last post; I wouldn't wanna be accused of thread necromancy after all.

Anyway, I had some random questions WRT the TIPOTS-verse, and Winston Smith's inquisitiveness on this board has inspired me to ask. If somebody could elucidate them for me, I'd be very much obliged
FleetMac -

Here's the quick answers
1) What replaces the BB fleet, once the Long War ends? More specifically, do guns still play the primary role of ASuW, or do missiles like the Harpoon take up the slack?
The CVN and air-delivered missiles take up the slack, backed up by submarines. The big-gun cruiser is going away, replaced by missile armed DLs, DDGs, and FFGs. In short, the early 21st century TIPOTS USN is going to end up looking a lot like @, only bigger.
2) I remember reading that the B-70 went to the Low-Altitude Penetration role; why was this? Was DAMS/bomber defenses simply not sufficient to keep the high-high-high flight profile in circulation? I ask because ISTR studies for modifying a hypothetical Valkyrie fleet indicating any Low-Altitude mods wouldn't work.
The best book on the Valkyrie (by Dennis Jenkins and Tony Landis) makes it abundantly clear that NAA knew and understood that Valkyrie would eventually HAVE to go low-level to survive as a penetrator. It would be cheaper to turn her into a standoff missile launcher, but the only reason low-level was second choice was that @ tech at the time didn't allow for doing it efficiently and affordably. In TIPOTS, it does - the tech level is about 10-15 years ahead at any given time.
3) Semi-related question; what makes the B-88 the premier nuclear bomber of the late Long War era and beyond? I remember the description indicating it was basically a bigger, fixed-wing version of @'s B-1B. Basically, what makes it best suited for that role, is what I'm asking here.
Well, it gets the job because it has to - the B-52 is getting old, the B-70 is wearing out, and the -88 is the distillation of everything we know about bomber warfare. In addition, it's rapidly becoming the ONLY heavy bomber in service anywhere in the world - the Russians are just now in TIPOTS getting a medium bomber into service, and not many of them, the Allies have retired all of theirs (for all practical purposes, the Vulcan and its export variants), and the Chinese are still running warmed over upgrades of early 60s Soviet mediums, and not very well at that. The heavy has become an unaffordable luxury for most nations.
4) What becomes of @'s AEGIS, what with the greater emphasis on ship's gunnery, shell technology, and less emphasis on naval aviation?
AEGIS (under different names) is still out there, but it was more of a battle management system than a defensive system. (Not sure if I've explained that right, so I hope it makes sense). With the CVs finally becoming dominant in the mid 90s, it's become what we know it as today, only with 50% more awesome.
5) Does the USN's carrier air wings use the same planes as @, only with different names? Or are those planes totally different designs?
They use very similar types. One important difference is that the TIPOTS USN never went through the 'missile-carrying-planes-will-defend-the-Fleet' phase, so their aircraft have been much more oriented towards the classic Naval Aviator's perspective.
6) How "strong" would you say the Army is, overall? Is it more of a tripwire a la TBO, or does it go places and blow stuff up with @'s frequency?
The US Army deployed a LOT in TIPOTS - there were several short but major wars and a bunch of little ones. The US Army has always been the 'oh-you-did-NOT-go-there' force - if they move out, whoever is on the other end will be taking a ferocious beating. There is no such thing as a 'show of force' with the US Army - if they arrive, you will be defeated. However, they are big and unwieldy, so it takes time for them to get into action. The Marines are, as in @, much lighter and more mobile, tho with an even more vicious attitude towards enemies.
7-A) What's the status of Special Operations forces in the US? Don't ask me why but I get the distinct impression they're less prevalent in TIPOTS
They are there - Rangers (AUS), Force Recon (USMC), Air Commando (USAF), and UDT (USN)...and they have been around-the-clock busy since the end of the Second World War in 1947. They are considerably larger than in @, probably equaling a light division in total numbers.
7-B) Ditto for the War on Terror (AFAIK there are no 9/11 attacks in TIPOTS)
Sadly, it happens in TIPOTS, too - the war detailed in Nightwatch ends with much of the Middle East in....um...bad shape. A lot of people want revenge, and in late 2001 there are massive, worldwide terror attacks orchestrated by a group of allied terror groups known collectively as Margbar Amrika (Farsi for 'death to America' ). The TIPOTS WOT lasts about six years, and Margbar Amrika and its supporting nations/groups are apparently beaten and beaten quite decisively. However, MA had a back-up plan.....

You don't think I'm going to TELL you, do you?
8) How strong is Communism in places like Latin America and Asia in this timeline, vice @'s? Does Cuba still fall, does China, Vietnam, etc.
Pretty much nonexistent. China is officially Communist but is more of a collection of federated Manchu-style warlord states that have a more-or-less common ideology. Cuba never did fall, though the attempted revolution there nearly caused WWIII. Vietnam went Communist early and stayed that way, though its now a very successful Yugoslavia-type nation with a strong economy.
9) Does WWII here still end with a very large, very radioactive BANG? Or does it play out more conventionally? If it's a major plot-point, please disregard my question.
Yes. Twice. The original idea that Germany would get the first bombs happens here with a six-bomb strike in February of 1946. Japan gets four in late 1947, though it still takes a full-dress invasion to bring them down, along with the mother of all sea battles at Sagami Bay.
10) Why does the USN get control of the Orbital Stations, vice the USAF? Just curious, if that's a long story then please disregard this question too.


Short version is National Security Politics - the USN said they were 'ships' even if they were a couple hundred miles up, the USAF said even if they were ships, they still flew, and the Army said that strictly speaking they were anti-aircraft weapons and bombardment platforms, so they should belong to THEM. In the end, President Reagan proposed a compromise - it would be a JOINT effort. USN would command their 'ships', USAF would provide the ops crews, and Army would handle battle management. Although it sounds like a recipe for disaster, the crews were so motivated for the mission that any parochial attitudes are swatted down real hard, real fast once in orbit, though friendly interservice rivalry is routine.
11) What would you say the culture of the USA is like in TIPOTS, what with the successful Soviet infiltration of the NCA, and the Special Security Teams?
....
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

'Well, for what it's worth....', '...When I was putting together the backstory for the TIPOTS universe, I took the B-29 out of the equation because it was having so many problems, and with the war starting 6 months early (and going VERY badly for the Allies), losing the UK was a MUCH more realistic proposition than in @. It seemed perfectly reasonable to me - based on conversations here in the past and reinforced by this one - that if we'd have put the same effort into the -36 that we did into the -29, you would have gotten the same results, especially as the war lasts into late '47 in TIPOTS. The TIPOTS 'Operation Gomorrah' involves B-36s and B-43s hitting 8 strategic targets in Germany in late January 46 and the war in Europe ending about 3 weeks later.

Mike
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

Winston Smith wrote:BTW, do ABM defences exsist in TIPOTs? Will I be a in a new chapter of Nightwatch, or a editeded one? BTW, one is the chronological reading order for TIPOTs?
Winston -

1. Yes, ABM defenses exist in most countries that have the ability to afford them. The US system is two-tiered - large bases around the perimeter, with smaller point-defense bases near major cities and SOME bases. However, it is all run through one C3 system, which will have some....problems....in Nightwatch.

2. A new chapter, which is/are on its/their way.

3. The CHRONOLOGICAL order of all TIPOTS stories (written and planned) is as follows:

1. Piranha (1934)
2. Those In Peril On The Sea (1941)
3. Gunpowder, Treason, and Plot (1941)
4. Case Vulkan (1941)
4a. Kilroy Was Here (Short Story, 1941)
5. We Shall Meet At Yasakune (1942)
6. Field Of Honor (1947)
7. Duel (1959)
8. Nightwatch (1991)
8a. The One That Got Away (Short Story, 2005)
8b. The Measure Of A Man (Short Story, 2015)
9. Counterfactual (2110 and 1898)

Stories in bold are the ones already printed. I should note that Counterfactual could be the first AND last story. -- Mike
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

CINCONAD (Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Air Defense Command), through his Combat Operations Center (COC) in Cheyenne, exercised operational command of SAFEGUARD through BMDC and he interfaced with BMDC via closed-circut TV monitor interfaces.

In the TIPOTS universe, ABM systems - from top to bottom - are run by the US Army. Most of the old Coast Artillery posts (think Fort Monroe, Fort Moultrie, etc) became ABM sites, and there are four large sites with radars across the top of the US.

--Mike
Last edited by MKSheppard on Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

Royal Navy TIPOTS - Another Perspective -- by Simon Darkshade

There have been a number of suggestions regarding the RN in TIPOTS and I thought I might have a go at outlining a potential fleet and development history, in line with the scenarios presented thus far. My goal was to try and amalgamate the best of what has been discussed with some thoughts of my own, whilst trying to keep to the parameters discussed by Mike in the first link.

The RN has three major roles – the battlefleet, East of Suez and Imperial policing carrier actions - along with a number of minor ones, such as flying the flag, convoy escort, trade protection and strategic deterrence.

1991:

Battleships
1 x Dreadnought
4 x Lions
4 x KGV

Carriers
4 x CVA (Ark Royal, Eagle, Victorious, Illustrious)

These would be the large ~65000-75000t ships alluded to by Mike, coming out of a CVA-01 program and entering service between 1969 and 1980. One would on deployment at any one time at Singapore, one coming back, one in refit, and one working up and nominally operational with the Home Fleet.

They would replace Audacious class carriers in service as the ‘heavy’ arm of the RN carrier branch.

They deploy 64+ aircraft, including a large, mach 2.7+ capable fleet air defence fighter, a strike fighter, an all round attack bomber and a multirole fighter/bomber, as well as rotodynes for ASW and AEW.

Possible aircraft candidates include BAC/Supermarine Type 589 for strike, Hawker Siddeley P.1121 for the multirole fighter, a supersonic Buccaneer for the attack bomber and either a fighter evolved from a Fairey Delta II/III or a Tomcat/Tigercat licence produced by de Havilland.

8 x CV (Hermes, Argus, Invincible, Glorious, Furious, Indefatigable, Indomitable, Formidable)

These ships would come out of a modified 1952 CV project (begun somewhat earlier in 1950) entering service between 1957 and 1968. They would displace about 35000-40000 tons, and deploy around 32 jet aircraft – 16 Buccaneers and 16 de Havilland DH.127s, and be somewhat analogous to an enlarged Illustrious class vessel.

Their deployment follows a similar model to the older battleships, with two held in reserve, two working up/Home Fleet, and a ship each at Singapore and Malta (supported by a second ship in each case undergoing maintenance at the appropriate fleet base).

Their role is both imperial policing and providing air strikes and air cover to the battlefleet.

Amphibious Warfare Ships

2 Commando Carriers/LPH
(Albion, Bulwark)

These 25000t ships are equipped with Rotodynes and helicopters to deploy Royal Marines and Royal Marine Commandos, and entered service in the mid 1960s to replace partial conversions of light fleet carriers.

2 Assault Ships/LPD
(Fearless, Intrepid)

Enlarged (25000t) Fearless class dock landing ships with a twin 4.5” mount

Cruisers

4 CAH
(Nelson, Rodney, Collingwood, St. Vincent)

Through deck cruisers with a dozen or more P.1154 Sea Harriers and a dozen Rotodynes operating from a central flight angled flight deck with ski jump. Equipped with Sea Dart and Sea Wolf VLS cells and a forward battery of 8 heavy supersonic antiship missiles deployed in an armoured spherical turret (based on the speculative Soviet BBG ‘designs’ that litter Janes in the late 40s and early 50s). Approximately Alaska CB size.

If we want to give them guns, throw in two 12”/60 twin turrets.

12 CLG
(Vanguard, Superb, Royalist, Ulysses, Defence, Splendid, Swiftsure, Magnificent, Triumph, Neptune, Tiger, Warrior)

Armed with 4 x 9.2”/60 guns and a secondary armament of 8 x 3”70, these are 20000-25000t enlarged GW-26 ships with 2-4 helicopters or rotodynes, a substantial contingent of Royal Marines, upwards of 80 long range dual purpose SAMs in a pair of launchers, four short range Sea Wolf vertical launch ‘turrets’ on the beams of the ship, 16 cruise missiles in amidships ABLs and 32 British SSMs in a VLS.

Entered service in the 1970s to replace earlier Minotaur class cruisers, which had been the subject of an unsuccessful partial missile conversion in the late 1950s.

Destroyers

16 DLG
(Kent, Suffolk, Cumberland, Norfolk, London, Devonshire, Shropshire, Derbyshire, Glamorgan, Surrey, Northumberland, Hampshire, Antrim, Somerset, Cumberland, Dorsetshire)

These would be analogous to an enlarged County class DDG (approximately 10000-12000t) and operate with the Home Fleet and Mediterranean Fleet. Ideally, they would carry two twin 6” mounts (or, much more ideally, evolved versions of the navalised Green Mace in 5.25”) with superfiring twin missile launchers and an amidships flight/Rotodyne deck. They would be similar in appearance to the mooted Type 43 design.

Their missiles were upgraded to a more modern SAM in the early 1980s in an RN ‘NTU’ process. They were procured in place of a new design that incorporated vertical launch systems due to cost over runs and other calls on the Defence purse (keeping V-Force up to date, new carrier aircraft, the battle line, Trident et al.)

These served as replacements for the Town and Crown Colony class cruisers which were phased out of service between 1958 and 1967.

32 DDGs
(Sheffield, Leeds, Brighton, Lancaster, Aberdeen, Lincoln, Birmingham, Newcastle, Glasgow, Cardiff, Coventry, Exeter, Southampton, Nottingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Gloucester, Belfast, Edinburgh, York, Bristol, Carlisle, Leicester, Plymouth, Wolverhampton, Whitby, Oxford, Dover Reading, Swansea, Yarmouth, Falmouth)

Enlarged (6000-7500t) double end Type 42s with a twin 6” or 4.5” mount forward and equipped with 48 Sea Dart and 48 Sea Wolf, helicopters/Rotodynes, a battery of SSMs. Powerful all round combatants, with two flotillas operating with the battlefleet, and the others supporting operations in the Med and Far East.

These destroyers, designated were designed to escort and complement the RN supercarriers and the nuclear battleships; with the cancellation of all but one of the latter, their design went into temporary limbo, but was modified and entered production in the early 1970s.

The first ships to enter service replaced the Daring class destroyers.

Four were lost in the Falklands War, and subsequently replaced by new construction.

Frigates
32 FFGs
(Leander, Arethusa, Apollo, Aurora, Minerva, Juno, Cleopatra, Euryalus, Neptune, Jupiter, Achilles, Mars, Argonaut, Bellerophon, Hector, Penelope, Phoebe, Scylla, Lysander, Ariadne, Bellona, Dido, Andromeda, Daedalus, Icarus, Danae, Spartacus, Artemis, Telemachus, Agamemnon, Caesar, Alexander)

Multi role single end frigates with a twin 4.5” mount and two helicopters, as well as a 32 cell Sea Wolf VLS in front of the bridge and 8 SSMs amidships. Assigned as guard ships on Imperial duties as well as operations with the Home Fleet and escort duties, the Leander class frigates were due to be replaced by a new common frigate design in the mid 1990s.

They entered service to replace wartime destroyers and fast antisubmarine frigates between 1965 and 1978.

64 FF
(Ardent, Archer, Ariel, Arrow, Antelope, Alacrity, Abundance, Actaeon, Assertive, Alarm, Amazon, Aeolus, Augustus, Atalanta, Ambuscade, Alert Brazen, Boxer, Brave, Broadsword, Battleaxe, Buccaneer, Bulldog, Banshee, Beagle, Belisarius, Blazer, Boadicea, Brilliant, Basilisk, Bucephalus, Brigandine
Crescent, Cossack, Comet, Chivalrous, Crossbow, Chieftain, Concord, Consort, Crystal, Crispin, Caesar, Charity, Croziers, Cormorant, Conquest, Cleopatra Daring, Duchess, Dauntless, Defender, Duncan, Diamond, Diligence, Dexterous, Destiny, Despatch, Delight, Dart, Defiance, Decoy, Doughty, Dragon)

Early to late 1960s vessels analogous to the Type 12M (A and B), Type 21 (C) and Type 22 (D). Australia built 12 Type 21s as part of the RAN DDL programme

General RN surface ideas
Equipped with 42mm ‘Red Queen’ guns for ‘junk bashing’ and Sea Vigilante/Goalkeeper CIWS.

Submarines
24 SSNs
(Churchill, Courageous, Centurion, Challenger
Warspite, Valiant, Black Prince, Iron Duke,
Spartan, Sentinel, Spiteful, Sceptre
Royal Sovereign, Renown, Repulse, Revenge
Trafalgar, Turbulent, Tireless, Talisman
Triton, Tempest, Trojan, Thunderbolt)

HMS Churchill famed for sinking an Argentine cruiser and HMS Royal Sovereign for crippling a carrier during the 1982 Falklands War.

24 SSK

(Phantom, Prince, Pathfinder, Proteus
Phoenix, Paladin, Pandora, Pelorus
Oberon, Odin, Olympus, Onyx,
Orion, Osiris, Orpheus, Octavian
Upholder, Unseen, Ultimatum, Upstart,
Undaunted, Unsparing, Uther, Untiring)

8 SSBNs
(Vengeance, Valorous, Vigilant, Vampire, Vulcan, Vindictive, Venomous, Violent)

Replacement for 1960s Resolution class, armed with 16 x Trident C4 or appropriate equivalent.

6 x Resolution
(Resolution, Relentless, Ramillies, Royal Oak, Reprisal, Retribution)

First RN SSBNs. In service from early 1960s to late 1980s.
Unknown

Re: Royal Navy TIPOTS - Another Perspective'

It is based on Mike's outline, and assorted other tidbits, such as Canada operating 10 carriers (with only the Atlantic coast), the comparable size of the USN as well as the notion of rolling ships in an out of reserve and what is required to support the battleline.

I'm not sure as to the wealth or economic health of Britain in TIPOTS, but I'd wager it would be rather better off

Carriers: " saw them as having two big-deck fleet carriers (Constellation/Kitty Hawk equivalents, let's call them Victorious and Invincible) and 4-6 smaller carriers (Midway equivalents, Hermes, Eagle, Furious, Ark Royal, Leviathan, and Glorious)"

2 active large carriers and 4 active smaller ones

Cruisers: "A strong, modern CG and CLG force large enough to provide for 3 CVBGs and another 7-10 ships beyond that" --16 ships

Destroyers and FFGs: "The bulk of the RNs surface force would be DDGs and FFGs."

80 ships, which is a reasonable bit above the historical Cold War level, but follows the rolling reserve pattern, and is somewhat close to the total active and reserve escort force level of the 1960s-1980s.

Frigates: Most of these would be out of service and in reserve by 1991, or disposed of, as happened historically. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough in that these vessels were not in regular service.

Submarines:
24 SSKs, all but 4 of which are on their way out
24 SSNs as compared to 18...larger, but not inordinately so.
Last edited by MKSheppard on Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TIPOTS Timeline & Background Errata

Post by MKSheppard »

Stuart -

In TBO, Hood is preserved at Portsmouth and Warspite in Australia. Of the US battleships, Texas is preserved at Houston and Arizona in Archangelsk. The Japanese have preserved Fuso. The French kept Jean Bart and Richelieu and the italians the Littorios until quite late, probably well into the 1970s.

In TIPOTS, Texas is not only a museum at Houston, she's in a climate-controlled enclosed drydock. Alabama and North Carolina are also museums. Some of the pre-war Standards also survived well into the 70s - California made it to 1985 as the Taipei with the Taiwanese Navy.

Mike
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