Yes, in Richard Kent’s Challenger 1 book he delves into that. U.S. Army team was caught taking pictures and videos of the range, etc.Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 12:48 am The CAT competitions were totally unrealistic and a lot of countries cheated.
British Army Order of Battle
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Re: British Army Order of Battle
"Challenger is a tank built for combat and not competitions."Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 12:48 am The CAT competitions were totally unrealistic and a lot of countries cheated.
As said by Brigadier Patrick Cordingley, the commander of 7th Armoured Brigade during Desert Storm
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Re: British Army Order of Battle
And with CR2 the army now has a tank built for combat that can also win competitions.
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Bernard,
Please shoot me an email, I am trying to update the ORBAT and have some questions.
Please shoot me an email, I am trying to update the ORBAT and have some questions.
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Re: British Army Order of Battle
Sure, will do so at the weekend if that’s okay.
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Re: British Army Order of Battle
Or was it an unofficial competition in the area of scouting/reconnaissance missions?Louie wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 1:44 amYes, in Richard Kent’s Challenger 1 book he delves into that. U.S. Army team was caught taking pictures and videos of the range, etc.Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 12:48 am The CAT competitions were totally unrealistic and a lot of countries cheated.
Being able to shoot is nice, but knowing the terrain, etc., without the other side knowing also matters. It ain't always a case of "dead men tell no tales."
Re: British Army Order of Battle
What's that? Whingeing 30 years after the fact? That's extremely un-BritishBernard Woolley wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 12:48 am The CAT competitions were totally unrealistic and a lot of countries cheated.
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Re: British Army Order of Battle
Clint Smith, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."
James T. Kirk, "I changed the conditions of the test."
James T. Kirk, "I changed the conditions of the test."
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Re: British Army Order of Battle
Un-British-Aerospace more like!!!Jotun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 12:33 pmWhat's that? Whingeing 30 years after the fact? That's extremely un-BritishBernard Woolley wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2024 12:48 am The CAT competitions were totally unrealistic and a lot of countries cheated.
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Just a Warning Order…
Bernard and I are currently trying to get a grip on updating the ORBAT. A ton of documents have been released since TLW started, so things that were guessed at/like to have turned out somewhat differently from what was planned prior to IRL Wall Fall. So we are trying to reconcile some things to adapt them for TLW (Bernard I hope I did not mis-speak for you)
Bernard and I are currently trying to get a grip on updating the ORBAT. A ton of documents have been released since TLW started, so things that were guessed at/like to have turned out somewhat differently from what was planned prior to IRL Wall Fall. So we are trying to reconcile some things to adapt them for TLW (Bernard I hope I did not mis-speak for you)
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Re: British Army Order of Battle
You certainly didn’t, Louie. Thanks for your help.
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Equipment, Ammunition, and Fuel: Operational Stocks of Ammunition on hand end of 1989
TOW = 5,139 (100% for 30 + days)
MILAN = 34,853 (100% for 30 + days)
SWINFIRE = 6,224 (100% for 30 + days)
LAW 80 35,539 (49 % for 14.6 days)
84mm CARL GUSTAV = 17,767 (7% for 2 days)
30mm RARDEN = 302,729 (100% for 30 + days)
76mm = 74,662 (100% for 30 + days)
120mm = 202,232 (100% for 30 + days)
65mm/105mm AVRE = 8,800 (100% for 30 + days)
51mm =302,226 (69% for 20.7 days)
81mm = 301,806 (82% for 39 days)
105mm LTG/ABBOTT = 825,125 (62% for 24 days)
155mm HE = 330,823
155mm ICM = 440,00 (both 68.5% for 20.5 days)
175mm =3,034 (35% for 10 days)
203mm -5,193 (no info)
RAPIER = 4,930 ( in 1990 5,625 (100% for 30 + days))
BLOWPIPE/JAVELIN = 9,019 (100% for 30 + days)
MLRS =3,030 (no info)
AT Mines = 623,500 (no info)
AP Mines =2,204,815 (no info)
TOW = 5,139 (100% for 30 + days)
MILAN = 34,853 (100% for 30 + days)
SWINFIRE = 6,224 (100% for 30 + days)
LAW 80 35,539 (49 % for 14.6 days)
84mm CARL GUSTAV = 17,767 (7% for 2 days)
30mm RARDEN = 302,729 (100% for 30 + days)
76mm = 74,662 (100% for 30 + days)
120mm = 202,232 (100% for 30 + days)
65mm/105mm AVRE = 8,800 (100% for 30 + days)
51mm =302,226 (69% for 20.7 days)
81mm = 301,806 (82% for 39 days)
105mm LTG/ABBOTT = 825,125 (62% for 24 days)
155mm HE = 330,823
155mm ICM = 440,00 (both 68.5% for 20.5 days)
175mm =3,034 (35% for 10 days)
203mm -5,193 (no info)
RAPIER = 4,930 ( in 1990 5,625 (100% for 30 + days))
BLOWPIPE/JAVELIN = 9,019 (100% for 30 + days)
MLRS =3,030 (no info)
AT Mines = 623,500 (no info)
AP Mines =2,204,815 (no info)
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Principal WMR/WRS Equipments/Natures Royal Navy as at 1 June 1990
VLSW = T23 -59 (each ship) AOR -38 (each ship) shortfall of 15%
4.5in Gun NGS Pool = 15,600 (100%)
AMRAAM = 12.75 per aircraft (30% shortfall)
GOALKEEPER = T22 each ship 12,000, CVS each ship 13,500 (21 days of combat, 5% shortfall)
PHALANX = T42 each ship 7,750 (23 days of combat, 20% shortfall)
20mmBMARC = 5,000 per gun (9 days of combat, 10% shortfall)
SEAWOLF = T22- 48 per ship, Leander-30 per ship, CVS-52 per ship, T42 Batch 3- 55 per ship (15% shortfall)
30mmBMARC = 2,000 rounds per gun (16 days of combat, 10% shortfall)
F76 POL = 75 days of combat (NATO requirement 45 days, 55 days shortfall)
SEA SKUA = 753 (15% shortfall)
SEA DART = T42- 53 per ship, CVS - 53 per ship, T82-42 (no info)
RNSH = SSN 02-06 each boat 24, SSN 07-19 each boat 20, SSN 20 - 20 (25% shortfall)
Sonobouys = LOFAR -58,523 (NATO 1.5 day shortfall, 0 National), DIFAR - 29,262 (NATO 15 day shortfall, 19% National), BATHY - 7,315 (NATO 27 day shortfall, 32% National)
HARPOON = T22/23 no numbers but a 25% shortfall
4.5in Mk8 HE & Starshell - 350 per ship (15% shortfall)
VLSW = T23 -59 (each ship) AOR -38 (each ship) shortfall of 15%
4.5in Gun NGS Pool = 15,600 (100%)
AMRAAM = 12.75 per aircraft (30% shortfall)
GOALKEEPER = T22 each ship 12,000, CVS each ship 13,500 (21 days of combat, 5% shortfall)
PHALANX = T42 each ship 7,750 (23 days of combat, 20% shortfall)
20mmBMARC = 5,000 per gun (9 days of combat, 10% shortfall)
SEAWOLF = T22- 48 per ship, Leander-30 per ship, CVS-52 per ship, T42 Batch 3- 55 per ship (15% shortfall)
30mmBMARC = 2,000 rounds per gun (16 days of combat, 10% shortfall)
F76 POL = 75 days of combat (NATO requirement 45 days, 55 days shortfall)
SEA SKUA = 753 (15% shortfall)
SEA DART = T42- 53 per ship, CVS - 53 per ship, T82-42 (no info)
RNSH = SSN 02-06 each boat 24, SSN 07-19 each boat 20, SSN 20 - 20 (25% shortfall)
Sonobouys = LOFAR -58,523 (NATO 1.5 day shortfall, 0 National), DIFAR - 29,262 (NATO 15 day shortfall, 19% National), BATHY - 7,315 (NATO 27 day shortfall, 32% National)
HARPOON = T22/23 no numbers but a 25% shortfall
4.5in Mk8 HE & Starshell - 350 per ship (15% shortfall)
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Principal WMR/WRS Equipments/Natures Royal Air Force as at 1 June 1990
SRAAM = 4,413 (NATO SPG 4,438, shortfall 1 %)
MRAAM = 2,242 SKYFLASH, 383 SPARROW (NATO SPG 2,241)
27mm HEI/APHE = Full stock of 30+ days (NATO SPG 574,320)
JP233 = Full stock of 30+ days (NATO SPG 1,370)
Sonobuoys = JEZEBEL- 36,325 (NATO SPG 13,321), DIFAR- 19,535 (NATO SPG 51,804, 62% shortfall), BARRA- 3,544 (NATO SPG 7,004, 50% shortfall),
CAMBS- 1,803 (NATO SPG 4,767, 62% shortfall), BATHY- 3,757 (NATO SPG 8,098, 54% shortfall)
Aviation Fuel = 33 Days (NATO SPG 38 days, 5 day shortfall)
SRAAM = 4,413 (NATO SPG 4,438, shortfall 1 %)
MRAAM = 2,242 SKYFLASH, 383 SPARROW (NATO SPG 2,241)
27mm HEI/APHE = Full stock of 30+ days (NATO SPG 574,320)
JP233 = Full stock of 30+ days (NATO SPG 1,370)
Sonobuoys = JEZEBEL- 36,325 (NATO SPG 13,321), DIFAR- 19,535 (NATO SPG 51,804, 62% shortfall), BARRA- 3,544 (NATO SPG 7,004, 50% shortfall),
CAMBS- 1,803 (NATO SPG 4,767, 62% shortfall), BATHY- 3,757 (NATO SPG 8,098, 54% shortfall)
Aviation Fuel = 33 Days (NATO SPG 38 days, 5 day shortfall)
Re: British Army Order of Battle
Principal WMR/WRS Equipments/Natures Army as at 1 June 1990
M109 155mm Howitzer = NATO SPG- 5, National-81, shortfall of 72 National
MBT = NATO SPG- 252, National-277, NATO shortfall 80/National 105
RAPIER towed/tracked = NATO SPG- 41, National-84, shortfall of 43 National
DN181 Tracker = NATO SPG-11, National 23, shortfall of 9 National
FH70 155mm Howitzer = NATO SPG-3, National 20, shortfall of 9 National
155mm ammo = NATO SPG 675,000, National 473,626, NATO shortfall 326,640/160,105 National
MILAN = NATO SPG- 26,806, National- 33,816, shortfall of 2,152 National
RAPIER MSL = No NATO SPG, National-6,192, shortfall of 2,220
M109 155mm Howitzer = NATO SPG- 5, National-81, shortfall of 72 National
MBT = NATO SPG- 252, National-277, NATO shortfall 80/National 105
RAPIER towed/tracked = NATO SPG- 41, National-84, shortfall of 43 National
DN181 Tracker = NATO SPG-11, National 23, shortfall of 9 National
FH70 155mm Howitzer = NATO SPG-3, National 20, shortfall of 9 National
155mm ammo = NATO SPG 675,000, National 473,626, NATO shortfall 326,640/160,105 National
MILAN = NATO SPG- 26,806, National- 33,816, shortfall of 2,152 National
RAPIER MSL = No NATO SPG, National-6,192, shortfall of 2,220