Once seen as the future, Boeing struggles to make a case for Starliner

[warshipadmin]

A slow leak is likely to be isothermal (gas is at constant temperature in the reservoir) in which case PV is a constant for the reservoir where V is 1/rho

So the tank pressure is a direct measure of the mass of gas. More elegantly PV=nRT which with all the constants replaced by k gives P=kn where n is the number of moles of gas

[brovane]

From what I am reading that all the Helium manifolds are turned off now so more leaking until undocking.

They have enough helium for 48+ hours of free flight and they only need a few hours after undocking and deorbit so the astronauts should be fine going back down on Starliner. I am sure there will be some interesting language exchanged between NASA and Boeing during the post-flight reviews and discussions in regards to certifying Starliner for human rated flight.

[jemhouston]

From what I am reading that all the Helium manifolds are turned off now so more leaking until undocking.

They have enough helium for 48+ hours of free flight and they only need a few hours after undocking and deorbit so the astronauts should be fine going back down on Starliner. I am sure there will be some interesting language exchanged between NASA and Boeing during the post-flight reviews and discussions in regards to certifying Starliner for human rated flight.

Astronaut's office negotiation tool



What I'm afraid Bill Nelson will bring

[brovane]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

[jemhouston]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

I'm also hoping they're taking to SpaceX.

[kdahm]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

I'm also hoping they're taking to SpaceX.

They probably don't have to. SpaceX has four Crew Dragon capsules:
C206 - Landed Sep 2023, launched March 4 2024, currently at ISS
C207 - Landed Sep 2021, to be launched Q3 2024
C210 - Landed March 2024, not on schedule
C212 - Landed Feb 2024, not on schedule

So C207 is probably close to ready to launch, just needs consumables and final prep done. C212 may need some work done. Boosters are even easier, especially if NASA is willing to relax the rules on reflights with manned capsules. As a WAG, I'd say a week or two from notice to launch to get one of the capsules to the ISS. Unless SpaceX has already privately started some contingency planning and prep work.

The bigger problem is docking ports. Does Crew-8 have enough propulsion to undock and redock one more time?

[brovane]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

I'm also hoping they're taking to SpaceX.

They probably don't have to. SpaceX has four Crew Dragon capsules:
C206 - Landed Sep 2023, launched March 4 2024, currently at ISS
C207 - Landed Sep 2021, to be launched Q3 2024
C210 - Landed March 2024, not on schedule
C212 - Landed Feb 2024, not on schedule

So C207 is probably close to ready to launch, just needs consumables and final prep done. C212 may need some work done. Boosters are even easier, especially if NASA is willing to relax the rules on reflights with manned capsules. As a WAG, I'd say a week or two from notice to launch to get one of the capsules to the ISS. Unless SpaceX has already privately started some contingency planning and prep work.

The bigger problem is docking ports. Does Crew-8 have enough propulsion to undock and redock one more time?

C207 would probably be out since it is configured for Polaris Dawn and the private spacewalk. This includes hardware around the docking port that would probably prevent docking to the ISS. Probably C210 or C212 would be better candidates. Crew-9 is planned for NET August but a capsule hasn't been assigned. I would assume that SpaceX is already looking at the capsule that was planned for crew-9 and possible contingencies.

[MikeKozlowski]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

I'm also hoping they're taking to SpaceX.

My understanding is that somebody at NASA had the good sense to quietly approach Space X and ask if they might be able to help in the event of an emergency, and the answer was absolutely yes.

And if true - and if needed - Elon and Space X end up heroes like we haven't seen in a while.

Mike

[jemhouston]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

I'm also hoping they're taking to SpaceX.

My understanding is that somebody at NASA had the good sense to quietly approach Space X and ask if they might be able to help in the event of an emergency, and the answer was absolutely yes.

And if true - and if needed - Elon and Space X end up heroes like we haven't seen in a while.

Mike

I wouldn't be surprised Elon offered to do it for free.

[brovane]

I have a suspicion that NASA is having a courageous conversation with Boeing right now.

Boeing Sent Two Astronauts Into Space. Now It Needs to Get Them Home.
https://www.wsj.com/science/space-astro ... _permalink

I'm also hoping they're taking to SpaceX.

My understanding is that somebody at NASA had the good sense to quietly approach Space X and ask if they might be able to help in the event of an emergency, and the answer was absolutely yes.

And if true - and if needed - Elon and Space X end up heroes like we haven't seen in a while.

Mike

The press will find someway to spin it as a negative because it involves Elon.

Remember how they spun Elon giving free Starlink service to Ukraine as a negative?

[Micael]

NASA again delays Starliner undocking, return to Earth
June 22, 2024 William Harwood

The Starliner spacecraft on NASA’s Boeing Crew Flight Test is pictured docked to the Harmony module’s forward port as the International Space Station orbited 263 miles above the Mediterranean Sea. Image: NASA.
NASA and Boeing managers have again decided to extend the Starliner crew capsule’s stay at the International Space Station, passing up a June 26 re-entry to allow more time for analysis and testing to make sure helium leaks and thruster failures are fully understood, officials said late Friday.

NASA plans to hold a formal re-entry readiness review before setting a new landing target date. Given the on-going analysis, the Starliner’s undocking and return to Earth likely will slip past two already planned space station spacewalks on Monday and July 2.

In the meantime, Starliner commander Barry “Butch” Wilmore and co-pilot Sunita Williams are still cleared to undock and fly home at any time if a station malfunction or other issue crops up that requires a quick departure. As such, officials say they are not stranded in space.

“We are taking our time and following our standard mission management team process,” Steve Stich, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, said in a statement. “We are letting the data drive our decision making relative to managing the small helium system leaks and thruster performance we observed during rendezvous and docking.”

In addition, he said, given the extended duration of the Starliner mission “it is appropriate for us to complete an agency-level review, similar to what was done ahead of the NASA’s SpaceX Demo-2 return after two months on orbit, to document the agency’s formal acceptance on proceeding as planned.”


NASA’s Boeing Crew Flight Test astronauts (from top) Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams pose for a portrait inside the vestibule between the forward port on the International Space Station’s Harmony module and Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft. Image: NASA
He was referring to the first flight of astronauts aboard SpaceX’s Crew Dragon ferry ship in 2020. But the Demo-2 mission did not experience problems like the ones noted so far in the Starliner’s first piloted test flight.

The issue for Starliner troubleshooters is that the helium leakage and the thrusters in question are located in the Starliner’s drum-shaped service module, which is attached to the base of the crew capsule. The service module is jettisoned prior to re-entry and burns up in the atmosphere.

Given that engineers will not be able to examine the actual hardware after the fact, NASA and Boeing managers want to give them as much time as possible to review telemetry, to continue testing and to polish contingency scenarios in case additional problems show up after undocking.

They also want to learn as much as possible about what might be needed to prevent similar problems in downstream flights. NASA managers were hoping to certify the Starliner for operational crew rotation flights to the ISS starting early next year, but it’s not yet clear if that’s remains a realistic goal.

In any case, Stich said the Starliner “is performing well in orbit while docked to the space station.”

“We are strategically using the extra time to clear a path for some critical station activities while completing readiness for Butch and Suni’s return on Starliner and gaining valuable insight into the system upgrades we will want to make for post-certification missions.”

Already running four years behind schedule, the Starliner was launched June 5, a month later than planned due to minor problems with its Atlas 5 rocket, trouble with a countdown computer and because of an initial helium leak in the system used to pressurize the capsule’s thrusters.

NASA and Boeing managers decided the leak was too small to pose a safety threat and the ship was cleared for launch. Once in orbit and on the way to the space station, however, four more helium leaks developed and the Starliner’s flight computer took seven maneuvering jets off line when the telemetry did not match pre-launch expectations.

One thruster was deemed unusable going forward, but the others were successfully test fired last Saturday. That “hot-fire” test gave engineers confidence the jets needed for post-undocking maneuvers and the critical de-orbit “burn” will work as needed to drop the ship out of orbit for re-entry.

Likewise, officials said they were confident the helium leaks could be managed even if one or more gets worse after undocking. Only seven hours of helium is needed for the return to Earth and the Starliner has more than 10 times that amount left on board.

[jemhouston]

Some in the Boeing C suite need tar and feathering. I'm willing to entertain using hot tar.

[jemhouston]

Return is now scheduled for July 20, which is 55th anniversary of the Moon landing. What that says about NASA and Boeing I don't want to think about.

[Micael]

If it’s any consolation the Chinese seems to be having worse issues that Boeing does when it comes to space. A static fire test that went just a tiny bit wrong. Video:
https://x.com/aj_fi/status/1807339807640518690?s=46

[Belushi TD]

Ouch.

That looks vaguely similar to the "failure" montage from "The Right Stuff". The US had some serious problems in the early 60's trying to get rockets to go up without, well... going up!

Belushi TD

[Nightwatch2]

Ouch.

That looks vaguely similar to the "failure" montage from "The Right Stuff". The US had some serious problems in the early 60's trying to get rockets to go up without, well... going up!

Belushi TD

We still have some pretty spectacular “events” on occasion

[Rocket J Squrriel]

If it’s any consolation the Chinese seems to be having worse issues that Boeing does when it comes to space. A static fire test that went just a tiny bit wrong. Video:
https://x.com/aj_fi/status/1807339807640518690?s=46

Has there ever been a mishap like that? When a hold down test wasn't held down?

[Micael]

If it’s any consolation the Chinese seems to be having worse issues that Boeing does when it comes to space. A static fire test that went just a tiny bit wrong. Video:
https://x.com/aj_fi/status/1807339807640518690?s=46

Has there ever been a mishap like that? When a hold down test wasn't held down?

Yeah I saw someone comment that it apparently happened once with a US test in the 50’s.

[kdahm]

Any know the status of consumables on board the ISS? Whole the reserves are plenty, they didn't plan for the Starliner pair to be there for more than seven days, and I don't think that they would have packed enough for six weeks.

Will Boeing be paying for loading up the next Cargo Dragon with a bit extra to make up the difference?

[Johnnie Lyle]

Any know the status of consumables on board the ISS? Whole the reserves are plenty, they didn't plan for the Starliner pair to be there for more than seven days, and I don't think that they would have packed enough for six weeks.

Will Boeing be paying for loading up the next Cargo Dragon with a bit extra to make up the difference?

Plus a few executives in handcuffs to ride Starliner back instead of the astronauts.