SKIPPER BLUE

[Johnnie Lyle]

A slight nitpick.

Starfleet does not have rear admirals lower half. They have commodores as a substantive rank.

Since Commodores and probably even Rear Admirals command cruiser squadrons, the type commander should be a fairly senior rear admiral, possibly even a junior vice admiral.

[Johnnie Lyle]

Yes. I've always been a fan of the Mastercom Ships of the Star Fleet materials. The rationale for the subtle differences made sense, the varying fit of the ships felt true to someone who grew up around the Navy, etc. (I even think there was one that was "fitted for, but not with" a specific subsystem, in proper Royal Navy fashion.)

A follow-up. 1701-A was either TI-HO (NCC-1798) or YORKTOWN (unknown registry), depending upon whether you prefer the Technical Guide or the Encyclopedia. Given that YORKTOWN was in service and disabled by the Whale Probe, TI-HO being renamed on the slip is more plausible. I assume that’s the Block IV?

Mike should weigh in, but is the TIKOPAI the Block III? The AGINCOURTS and the SHANGRI-LAs also have to fit in somewhere in the late NCC-17XX series, since canonically TITAN is the SHANGRI-LA class with the registry number NCC-1777.

I tentatively have the MIRANDAs slotted as NCC-180x to at least 1864, but also NCC-1887 (SARATOGA). Is AMAGI utilizing a gap in the registry, similar to the CA/CL designation in the USN?

I also have the SOYUZ class slotted in as NCC-1900 to at least -1941 (BOZEMAN), some SYDNEYs crammed in there, and the Forty Thieves (hat tip to Bernard) as NCC-1959 to -1999 (PRINCE), with NCC-1974 cancelled and reordered as CONSTELLATION CL prototype, and obviously EXCELSIOR as NX-2000.

Thoughts?

Tikopai, per SoTSF, was an austere CH design focused on exploration.

SoTSF's hull numbers are a hot mess, but so is the TOS/movie era in general. I have 1701-A as a Block III CH 1701 (CH 1843 Levant class), and Block IV began with NCC-1847, USS America, which received aft-firing torpedo tubes at the rear base of the dorsal. The MIRANDA/AVENGER subclass got a big block of numbers, then some more were ordered, etc. There are gaps in the hull number schemes due to block procurements, contractors screwing up, fleet yards screwing up, the Federation Council Armed Services Committee screwing up, etc.

One thing I tend to do is assign CH hull names from either the Tikopai batch in the Franz Joseph Tech Manual, or from classic names I dig. So my hulls would include Victorious, Amagi, Formidable, Indomitable, Hiryu, etc. (Yes, I like my carriers.)

If you follow the Wolf 359 project, HIRYU was NCC-1762 until she was renamed REPUBLIC as a Star Fleet training ship and then lost at Wolf 359.

[Poohbah]

A slight nitpick.

Starfleet does not have rear admirals lower half. They have commodores as a substantive rank.

Since Commodores and probably even Rear Admirals command cruiser squadrons, the type commander should be a fairly senior rear admiral, possibly even a junior vice admiral.

There's nothing explicitly saying they don't have RDMLs.

TYCOM is a misnomer, a holdover from the old days of UESPA, before the Federation rolled up the national fleets into Starfleet. Think of it in the sense that the CVW commander still gets called "CAG" even though we haven't had CVGs since 1963; it's merely a linguistic anachronism.

He doesn't have actual command responsibility; but his word is law on who gets CO/XO billets in the cruiser force.

This is really an apprenticeship for becoming a Numbered Fleet personnel officer, and is considered an important stop on the way to Numbered Fleet command, along with a tour at Starfleet Operations.

[Johnnie Lyle]

A slight nitpick.

Starfleet does not have rear admirals lower half. They have commodores as a substantive rank.

Since Commodores and probably even Rear Admirals command cruiser squadrons, the type commander should be a fairly senior rear admiral, possibly even a junior vice admiral.

There's nothing explicitly saying they don't have RDMLs.

TYCOM is a misnomer, a holdover from the old days of UESPA, before the Federation rolled up the national fleets into Starfleet. Think of it in the sense that the CVW commander still gets called "CAG" even though we haven't had CVGs since 1963; it's merely a linguistic anachronism.

He doesn't have actual command responsibility; but his word is law on who gets CO/XO billets in the cruiser force.

This is really an apprenticeship for becoming a Numbered Fleet personnel officer, and is considered an important stop on the way to Numbered Fleet command, along with a tour at Starfleet Operations.

Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise mentions commodores and rear admirals, but not RDMLs. I’ll have to check my other reference materials, but I don’t recall any mention of RDML. Memory Alpha also has no mention of them.

Conversely, we see five substantive and one imaginary commodores, with explicitly different rank insignia than captains: Mendez, Stone, Decker, Wesley, Oh and LaForge. There’s also Colonel West, who is wearing the insignia of a 1-star.

It’s pretty clear that Commodore is the naval 1-star rank.

The type commander needs sufficient seniority to ward off the other officers on scene who will also try to address command vacancies within their command authority. We saw by 2366 that flag officers had the authority to promote (as shown by Riker wearing four pips) and by 2367 senior officers had the authority to choose captains (as shown by Picard assigning Riker to command EXCALIBER and Data to command SUTHERLAND). If the type commander is junior to CruRon and task force commanders, they will run roughshod over them.

[Poohbah]

A slight nitpick.

Starfleet does not have rear admirals lower half. They have commodores as a substantive rank.

Since Commodores and probably even Rear Admirals command cruiser squadrons, the type commander should be a fairly senior rear admiral, possibly even a junior vice admiral.

There's nothing explicitly saying they don't have RDMLs.

TYCOM is a misnomer, a holdover from the old days of UESPA, before the Federation rolled up the national fleets into Starfleet. Think of it in the sense that the CVW commander still gets called "CAG" even though we haven't had CVGs since 1963; it's merely a linguistic anachronism.

He doesn't have actual command responsibility; but his word is law on who gets CO/XO billets in the cruiser force.

This is really an apprenticeship for becoming a Numbered Fleet personnel officer, and is considered an important stop on the way to Numbered Fleet command, along with a tour at Starfleet Operations.

Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise mentions commodores and rear admirals, but not RDMLs. I’ll have to check my other reference materials, but I don’t recall any mention of RDML. Memory Alpha also has no mention of them.

Conversely, we see five substantive and one imaginary commodores, with explicitly different rank insignia than captains: Mendez, Stone, Decker, Wesley, Oh and LaForge. There’s also Colonel West, who is wearing the insignia of a 1-star.

It’s pretty clear that Commodore is the naval 1-star rank.

The type commander needs sufficient seniority to ward off the other officers on scene who will also try to address command vacancies within their command authority. We saw by 2366 that flag officers had the authority to promote (as shown by Riker wearing four pips) and by 2367 senior officers had the authority to choose captains (as shown by Picard assigning Riker to command EXCALIBER and Data to command SUTHERLAND). If the type commander is junior to CruRon and task force commanders, they will run roughshod over them.

They never really used rear or vice admiral in TOS, either, just "Admiral."

A possible solution: as "Commodore" is a title and not a rank in the current USN, "RDML" is a title and not a rank in Starfleet, denoting a Commodore who's occupying a billet of unusually broad authority, and might be considered an apprenticeship for RADM.

I always felt that Starfleet was run like a very small force in the 2266-2270 period--"only 12 like her in the Fleet," Kirk knowing damn near everyone who was anyone, etc. It was a hands-on organization, even as they gave starship captains extremely broad authority. By 2290, the system is straining, if not actually breaking. Hutchison may be the last old-school Cruiser TYCOM, and a lot of old hands are worried at what they see as "the old Fleet" passing away as Starfleet gets too big to be managed in the old ways.

And the TYCOM desk guy has the full authority of CinC Starfleet behind him. The billet is comparatively junior because they want people with recent experience Out There making the call as to who should get the Big Chair for the Fleet's most independent ships, and it's a filter for determining if this guy can function at a higher staff level AND if higher staff duties are a good fit for him. If not, just send him back to the Fleet as a Commodore with a Command Cruiser and CruRon assignment, no hurt, no blood, no foul.

[Poohbah]

Another thought: CruRon Commodores and Cruiser CTF 2-stars don't try to run roughshod over the TYCOM, because they all came up through that system.

They may give input--and almost always do, except in cases of relief for cause. Then, it's traditional for them to shut up and color, because someone at Starfleet Operations is likely wondering about whether the squadron commodore and/or CTF needs to go, as well.

A good TYCOM listens to input from the ship's chain of command, but doesn't slavishly follow it. Nor does he always push back. This is part of his apprenticeship; can this guy tell a senior officer to shove it in a fashion that is consistent with good order and discipline, and upholds the values of Starfleet?

[Johnnie Lyle]

There's nothing explicitly saying they don't have RDMLs.

TYCOM is a misnomer, a holdover from the old days of UESPA, before the Federation rolled up the national fleets into Starfleet. Think of it in the sense that the CVW commander still gets called "CAG" even though we haven't had CVGs since 1963; it's merely a linguistic anachronism.

He doesn't have actual command responsibility; but his word is law on who gets CO/XO billets in the cruiser force.

This is really an apprenticeship for becoming a Numbered Fleet personnel officer, and is considered an important stop on the way to Numbered Fleet command, along with a tour at Starfleet Operations.

Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise mentions commodores and rear admirals, but not RDMLs. I’ll have to check my other reference materials, but I don’t recall any mention of RDML. Memory Alpha also has no mention of them.

Conversely, we see five substantive and one imaginary commodores, with explicitly different rank insignia than captains: Mendez, Stone, Decker, Wesley, Oh and LaForge. There’s also Colonel West, who is wearing the insignia of a 1-star.

It’s pretty clear that Commodore is the naval 1-star rank.

The type commander needs sufficient seniority to ward off the other officers on scene who will also try to address command vacancies within their command authority. We saw by 2366 that flag officers had the authority to promote (as shown by Riker wearing four pips) and by 2367 senior officers had the authority to choose captains (as shown by Picard assigning Riker to command EXCALIBER and Data to command SUTHERLAND). If the type commander is junior to CruRon and task force commanders, they will run roughshod over them.

They never really used rear or vice admiral in TOS, either, just "Admiral."

A possible solution: as "Commodore" is a title and not a rank in the current USN, "RDML" is a title and not a rank in Starfleet, denoting a Commodore who's occupying a billet of unusually broad authority, and might be considered an apprenticeship for RADM.

Which fits. We see the insignia, but dialogue-wise we don’t hear vice admiral until TNG, and rear admiral until IIRC DS9.

Your solution is logical. The other option is frocking, which pedantic Vulcans might have a problem with, resulting in having to differentiate between frocked and substantive ranks.

I always felt that Starfleet was run like a very small force in the 2266-2270 period--"only 12 like her in the Fleet," Kirk knowing damn near everyone who was anyone, etc. It was a hands-on organization, even as they gave starship captains extremely broad authority. By 2290, the system is straining, if not actually breaking. Hutchison may be the last old-school Cruiser TYCOM, and a lot of old hands are worried at what they see as "the old Fleet" passing away as Starfleet gets too big to be managed in the old ways.

Even by the 2360s, it’s pretty clear that Starfleet is small enough that captains at least know each other by reputation, if not actively socializing. We see that a lot with Picard knowing quite a few captains and most of the admirals. Riker is similarly familiar with a lot of his contemporaries - or at least the dead ones like Paul Rice and Iso Talaka. So the familiarity is still there. It’s mire that the size and distance are such that central control is impracticable, especially in the hotspots like the Neutral Zone, where realtime comms were not possible.

If you have not read The Wooden World, I heartily recommend it (Stuart suggested it as the book to understand the Royal Navy in the Age of Sail). I suspect Starfleet personnel has to run similarly, especially as things expand and the distances are just too far for things to be controlled centrally. I concur that the TYCOM system is definitely straining, and it has to be replaced by a more decentralized system which puts personnel authority into the fleet and station commanders, purely due to size and distance constraints, similar to the Age of Sail RN.

And the TYCOM desk guy has the full authority of CinC Starfleet behind him. The billet is comparatively junior because they want people with recent experience Out There making the call as to who should get the Big Chair for the Fleet's most independent ships, and it's a filter for determining if this guy can function at a higher staff level AND if higher staff duties are a good fit for him. If not, just send him back to the Fleet as a Commodore with a Command Cruiser and CruRon assignment, no hurt, no blood, no foul.

I can see the logic when it’s a small or specialized force (similar to the USN submarine force), where things are close enough that semi-realtime comms are possible, or if it’s purely an administrative command which usually handles routine personnel assignments. The latter role could persist quite a long time, even in a big fleet.

But it’s inevitably going to come into conflict with fleet and station commanders in emergency matters. Especially if they and the type commanders can’t work well together. Which may be a reason on its own to keep it

Another thought: CruRon Commodores and Cruiser CTF 2-stars don't try to run roughshod over the TYCOM, because they all came up through that system.

They may give input--and almost always do, except in cases of relief for cause. Then, it's traditional for them to shut up and color, because someone at Starfleet Operations is likely wondering about whether the squadron commodore and/or CTF needs to go, as well.

A good TYCOM listens to input from the ship's chain of command, but doesn't slavishly follow it. Nor does he always push back. This is part of his apprenticeship; can this guy tell a senior officer to shove it in a fashion that is consistent with good order and discipline, and upholds the values of Starfleet?

Maybe. It probably depends on who picked the skipper and why they were relieved. Ops may very well be looking at the TYCOM with a gimlet eye for picking badly.

I suspect a lot really depends upon how patronage works in Starfleet. It’s pretty clear there is quite a bit of freedom for admirals and captains to pick key personnel: Kirk handpicked Decker for ENTERPRISE, and Picard and Sisko both had considerable input on their XOs and department heads (Picard especially, since he hand picked both Riker and Yar.). We also saw Hanson having a wide degree of influence as well.

Which could be the genesis of conflict between the administrative TYCOMs and the more operations oriented people out there.

Which is very Navy-like.

[Poohbah]

Further expanding my thoughts...

Only 12 like her in the fleet. At least in Season 1.

What was the build rate across the Federation? How many more ships had commissioned, how many worked up for deployment, and how many were headed Out There, Thataway, by Seasons 2 and 3?

Some of the dialogue from early on also implies that the Federation, while being roughly a century old, has only very recently begun systematically exploring the Treaty Exploration Zone.

And the mission orders for the Enterprise seem to be a little loosey-goosey for a major fleet unit. "To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations . . . "

So . . . something happened. Comparatively recently, possibly within Captain James T. Kirk's lifetime (and he's in his mid-30s), that completely changed the outlook of the Federation, and they threw serious resources into the Galaxy Exploration Command.

And the Federation Council kept the money flowing, despite the huge shift it caused in the culture of the Federation, in the
culture of the Federation Starfleet, and what was encountered (the Talosians, a major war, at least two Captains going absolutely fooking nuts, and multiple capital ship losses).

So, that begs the question: why? What could cause such a huge shift in the culture of the Federation?

[jemhouston]

Not sure how well this fits, someone found a dead civilization (fairly recent gone), nobody knew about. The Federation needed to find out what killed it and what else was out there before they came hunting the Federation. Hence the major fleet units going out.

My other theory, Gary Seven's people poked the Federation to getting out there for reason of their own.

[Johnnie Lyle]

Further expanding my thoughts...

Only 12 like her in the fleet. At least in Season 1.

What was the build rate across the Federation? How many more ships had commissioned, how many worked up for deployment, and how many were headed Out There, Thataway, by Seasons 2 and 3?

Some of the dialogue from early on also implies that the Federation, while being roughly a century old, has only very recently begun systematically exploring the Treaty Exploration Zone.

And the mission orders for the Enterprise seem to be a little loosey-goosey for a major fleet unit. "To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations . . . "

So . . . something happened. Comparatively recently, possibly within Captain James T. Kirk's lifetime (and he's in his mid-30s), that completely changed the outlook of the Federation, and they threw serious resources into the Galaxy Exploration Command.

And the Federation Council kept the money flowing, despite the huge shift it caused in the culture of the Federation, in the
culture of the Federation Starfleet, and what was encountered (the Talosians, a major war, at least two Captains going absolutely fooking nuts, and multiple capital ship losses).

So, that begs the question: why? What could cause such a huge shift in the culture of the Federation?

Mike has stated they can only put together a few dozen warp cores per year by the 2280s/2290s. I’ve taken that to mean military grade, and he and I have kicked around a rough number of 60 Warp 5 mil-spec drives per year.

Based on that number, I think that explains why Starfleet keeps old ships in service so long and why the refit/rebuild/“great repair” so many old ships with lower registry numbers. They can’t build the cores they need to build new hulls, so they have to refit. I suspect some big tech developments happened during the Lost Era to allow for a lot more warp cores to be built, allowing for the very rapid expansion of the fleet (akin to the USN in WWII) in the 2370s to sustain the Borg and Dominion war losses - but those tech advances also blew up the UFP’s civilian fleet and sphere of influence well before Starfleet needed a lot of new ships.

I suspect the big drivers for expanding the Fleet (especially the cruiser force) during the 2270s and 2280s were:

• Human driven civilian expansion, much like our own ages of discovery and colonial settling. There’s just a human urge to get out there, and even in a post-scarcity environment, there’s stuff you just can’t replicate. Especially if, as seems likely, the American viewpoint of meaning and fulfillment coming from what you do and what you build becomes a major driver for why Fed citizens get up in the morning. So there’s a huge need for space to go out and do stuff in. So people do.
• Space is inherently a lot more dangerous than we thought it was. If people are out and about in it, they’re inevitably going to get into trouble. Somebody has to be out there to help. Coast guard and lifesaving duties require lots of ships to patrol the spacelanes, keep contact with colonies, and make space safe to navigate.
• Space is inherently a lot more lawless than we thought it was. TOS is full of shady characters like Harry Mudd and Cyrano Jones. It’s also full of Orion pirates, smugglers, and the like. Wet navies have proved to be the only real law enforcement vehicle outside of territorial waters. I figure a space navy is much the same, and we routinely see Kirk and Picard engaged in law enforcement roles.
• The war with the Klingons. This is less about Starfleet needing more ships, and more about Starfleet needing better ships. But it rammed home just how vulnerable the Federation is to hostile space empires, and thus Starfleet needs a LOT more mobile firepower, not just lightly armed rescue ships. The existing fleet got its ass kicked up between its ears because it lacked the ability to fight the Klingons well. Then we have other interstellar powers like the Romulans, Gorn and Tholians jumping in and making the interstellar diplomatic and security situation a lot more complicated.

ENTERPRISE under Kirk is on a classic age-of-sail cruising mission. Yeah, the commission is loosey-goosey, but the individual orders are classic age of sail combinations of survey and presence - exactly what cruizers did in peacetime here on earth.

So I posit that the Feds and Starfleet finally realized that expansion was inevitable, just given civilian drivers, and so it was build a bigger fleet to make space safer, or live with mass death as space proved as brutal and uncaring as the sea.

They chose to make space safer by building more ships and engaging in lots of diplomacy to strengthen the Federation’s position. Getting out there first and getting on people’s good side, along with trying to smooth over existing animosity fits that ethos.

They’re pretty much the mirror image of the Borg.

[Bernard Woolley]

On the issue of Rear Admirals etc, if we go by the Memory Alpha article. Starfleet has the following flag ranks (in ascending order):

- Commodore
- Rear Admiral
- Vice Admiral
- Admiral
- Fleet Admiral

Reminds me that James Kirk was demoted two ranks (three if the rank of Fleet Captain is included) when reduced to Captain. Starfleet does seem to have been quite profligate with the rank of Fleet Admiral too.

[Poohbah]

Not sure how well this fits, someone found a dead civilization (fairly recent gone), nobody knew about. The Federation needed to find out what killed it and what else was out there before they came hunting the Federation. Hence the major fleet units going out.

My other theory, Gary Seven's people poked the Federation to getting out there for reason of their own.

Why not both?

I imagine that sort of thing would be extremely hush-hush. Maybe they don't even tell the ship's CO any of the details.

[MikeKozlowski]

On the issue of Rear Admirals etc, if we go by the Memory Alpha article. Starfleet has the following flag ranks (in ascending order):

- Commodore
- Rear Admiral
- Vice Admiral
- Admiral
- Fleet Admiral

Reminds me that James Kirk was demoted two ranks (three if the rank of Fleet Captain is included) when reduced to Captain. Starfleet does seem to have been quite profligate with the rank of Fleet Admiral too.

Bernard,

Absolutely right on the FADM issue - by the time of ST6, each of the border fleets, First Fleet, and CINC is being run by an FADM so you end up with at least seven FADM on duty at any one time . After the Cartwright -Chang conspiracy, it will be found that all of these guys were playing - at the very least - fast and loose. Cartwright was 2nd Fleet (Klingon) and he went to jail; the rest were congratulated on their immediate retirement or else. Quite a few ADM followed them . VADM Cleavely at IG was considered utterly incorruptible, so she got jumped two grades to take over StarFleet . FADM Smillie was completely cleared of any wrongdoing....but it happened on his watch, so he was out.

Mike

[Bernard Woolley]

Might have also been a good opportunity to sort out the FADM issue. IMVHO, the only active duty FADM should be the CINC. Fleets should be commanded by ADM or even VADM.

[Poohbah]

Might have also been a good opportunity to sort out the FADM issue. IMVHO, the only active duty FADM should be the CINC. Fleets should be commanded by ADM or even VADM.

CINCSTARFLEET: Fleet Admiral

DC/S Starfleet Ops: ADM (Typically viewed as the heir apparent)

Quadrant (well, Octant) Fleet: ADM

Numbered Fleets: VADM

Numbered Fleet Task Forces: RADM

Task Groups and Cruiser Squadrons: Commodore

Task Units and Destroyer/Frigate Squadrons: Fleet Captain

My real question is why Kirk got jumped up past Fleet Captain and Commodore to RADM (presumably). Was the Enterprise making it home from that deployment THAT big a deal?

[Johnnie Lyle]

Might have also been a good opportunity to sort out the FADM issue. IMVHO, the only active duty FADM should be the CINC. Fleets should be commanded by ADM or even VADM.

CINCSTARFLEET: Fleet Admiral

DC/S Starfleet Ops: ADM (Typically viewed as the heir apparent)

Quadrant (well, Octant) Fleet: ADM

Numbered Fleets: VADM

Numbered Fleet Task Forces: RADM

Task Groups and Cruiser Squadrons: Commodore

Task Units and Destroyer/Frigate Squadrons: Fleet Captain

My real question is why Kirk got jumped up past Fleet Captain and Commodore to RADM (presumably). Was the Enterprise making it home from that deployment THAT big a deal?

A couple thoughts.

First, I suspect Star Fleet follows Royal Navy age of sail practice, where solo cruiser captains are very senior, very well thought of and already on the fast track to flag rank. They’re the officers most likely to be out there where they will often be out of contact and thus everything depends upon their good judgment. If Starfleet didn’t trust Kirk, they might still give him ENTERPRISE, but assign her to an actual CRURON, or give him a ship less likely to be out on her own where his judgment and tactical acumen is less relevant to overall success and well being of Starfleet.

So he’s essentially already shown he can be trusted with that level of responsibility before they gave ENTERPRISE a five year cruising mission, and what we see of him in Strange New Worlds largely justifies that. It’s specifically noted that Kirk had been the fastest to make XO, and we know he got ENTERPRISE at 32. So arguably he’s clearly on the fast track to flag rank, though neither he nor Starfleet recognizes that’s not the best use of his talents.

So it looks like they were already planning to put him into flag rank, and jumping commodore to Rear Admiral was a pretty common RN and USN practice, so it’s unusual but not completely unreasonable practice for the hottest of hot shots.

[Bernard Woolley]

I don’t think it’s ever been shown in canon media how Kirk made it from Captain to RADM? But it does appear he went straight to RADM, then down again (?) after the V’Ger Crisis for a second five year mission commanding ENTERPRISE. But, was a RADM again by 2284.

[jemhouston]

I don’t think it’s ever been shown in canon media how Kirk made it from Captain to RADM? But it does appear he went straight to RADM, then down again (?) after the V’Ger Crisis for a second five year mission commanding ENTERPRISE. But, was a RADM again by 2284.

I think his official rank was Rear Admiral. He was an acting Captain during his second Enterprise command tour.

[Johnnie Lyle]

I don’t think it’s ever been shown in canon media how Kirk made it from Captain to RADM? But it does appear he went straight to RADM, then down again (?) after the V’Ger Crisis for a second five year mission commanding ENTERPRISE. But, was a RADM again by 2284.

And hating it.

It’s not stated he was actually demoted during the V’Ger crisis, so he could have been like one of those Japanese admirals commanding capital ships in 1944.

[Poohbah]

I don’t think it’s ever been shown in canon media how Kirk made it from Captain to RADM? But it does appear he went straight to RADM, then down again (?) after the V’Ger Crisis for a second five year mission commanding ENTERPRISE. But, was a RADM again by 2284.

And hating it.

It’s not stated he was actually demoted during the V’Ger crisis, so he could have been like one of those Japanese admirals commanding capital ships in 1944.

He wore Captain's stripes.