Nearing a new brigade AD concept for Sweden

[Micael]

An RFI has gone out for a comprehensive new air defense setup for the Swedish army brigades. The request is for a three tiered concept with medium range, short range, and very short range systems included.

Some details here:




The concept as such seems reasonable, aiming to give protection against high end saturation attacks, as well as low end (drone) attacks. One thing I’m pondering is which systems fit the bill of the MRAD component, with the stated minimum 40 km range and 15 km altitude coverage. I think NASAMS 3 does, and it should be suitable from the saturation aspect as well, but CAMM-ER/MR seems to fall short in the altitude coverage. RBS-23 does have the altitude coverage, but not the range, and is not optimal in saturation scenarios. Any others that come to mind?

The SHORAD bit, perhaps CAMM could be an option there. Not sure what others fits that and the VSHORAD bit.

Do we have any potential bidders that have a suitable product for all three categories in their portfolio?

[Craiglxviii]

An RFI has gone out for a comprehensive new air defense setup for the Swedish army brigades. The request is for a three tiered concept with medium range, short range, and very short range systems included.

Some details here:




The concept as such seems reasonable, aiming to give protection against high end saturation attacks, as well as low end (drone) attacks. One thing I’m pondering is which systems fit the bill of the MRAD component, with the stated minimum 40 km range and 15 km altitude coverage. I think NASAMS 3 does, and it should be suitable from the saturation aspect as well, but CAMM-ER/MR seems to fall short in the altitude coverage. RBS-23 does have the altitude coverage, but not the range, and is not optimal in saturation scenarios. Any others that come to mind?

The SHORAD bit, perhaps CAMM could be an option there. Not sure what others fits that and the VSHORAD bit.

Do we have any potential bidders that have a suitable product for all three categories in their portfolio?

Aster-15, CAMM and Skyranger 35.

I do really think TBO Defence Consulting Ltd. should be stood up…

[Micael]

An RFI has gone out for a comprehensive new air defense setup for the Swedish army brigades. The request is for a three tiered concept with medium range, short range, and very short range systems included.

Some details here:




The concept as such seems reasonable, aiming to give protection against high end saturation attacks, as well as low end (drone) attacks. One thing I’m pondering is which systems fit the bill of the MRAD component, with the stated minimum 40 km range and 15 km altitude coverage. I think NASAMS 3 does, and it should be suitable from the saturation aspect as well, but CAMM-ER/MR seems to fall short in the altitude coverage. RBS-23 does have the altitude coverage, but not the range, and is not optimal in saturation scenarios. Any others that come to mind?

The SHORAD bit, perhaps CAMM could be an option there. Not sure what others fits that and the VSHORAD bit.

Do we have any potential bidders that have a suitable product for all three categories in their portfolio?

Aster-15, CAMM and Skyranger 35.

I do really think TBO Defence Consulting Ltd. should be stood up…

I know that there’s an Aster 15 in the works with a longer range, but I thought the current version wouldn’t fulfill the ”minimum 40 km” requirement. It would be an interesting combination though.

[pengolod_sc]

Is there any reason not to evaluate an updated version of the existing Lvkv 90 (SPAAG version of CV9040) for the VSHORAD mission?

[Micael]

Is there any reason not to evaluate an updated version of the existing Lvkv 90 (SPAAG version of CV9040) for the VSHORAD mission?

I think they’re treating the Lvkv 90 separately, as they are a close protection maneuver element that are a part of the armored/mechanized batallions. Also I think that they’re planning on being able to use this concept not only for the tracked mechanized brigades but also for brigades like Livgardesbrigaden who run wheeled armor (and thus doesn’t have the Lvkv 90.)

[Straker]

Wouldn't the CAMM-ER variant under development for Italy fit for the MRAD component and then allow the use of CAMM for the shorter range requirement?

It might be the translation but its not clear to me if the requirement is for a system with 40km range at 15km altitude or a system with capability for both but not at the same time. If its not at the same time the 40km range fits pretty clearly in the CAMM-ER bracket along with the ability to have a short range missile launcher in the same battery. The Italian Air Force MAADS system is very close to deployment.

[Micael]

Wouldn't the CAMM-ER variant under development for Italy fit for the MRAD component and then allow the use of CAMM for the shorter range requirement?

It might be the translation but its not clear to me if the requirement is for a system with 40km range at 15km altitude or a system with capability for both but not at the same time. If its not at the same time the 40km range fits pretty clearly in the CAMM-ER bracket along with the ability to have a short range missile launcher in the same battery. The Italian Air Force MAADS system is very close to deployment.

It’s not fully clear to me neither, but I didn’t think that CAMM-ER had a stated max altitude of 15 km? All I’ve seen is 10 km.

[Craiglxviii]

Wouldn't the CAMM-ER variant under development for Italy fit for the MRAD component and then allow the use of CAMM for the shorter range requirement?

It might be the translation but its not clear to me if the requirement is for a system with 40km range at 15km altitude or a system with capability for both but not at the same time. If its not at the same time the 40km range fits pretty clearly in the CAMM-ER bracket along with the ability to have a short range missile launcher in the same battery. The Italian Air Force MAADS system is very close to deployment.

It’s not fully clear to me neither, but I didn’t think that CAMM-ER had a stated max altitude of 15 km? All I’ve seen is 10 km.

CAMM-ER is stated as “>45km” and “>10km”. So it might well do the medium range solution too.

ASTER 15 is stated as “>30km”… and I’m sure I’ve heard that operationally it’s good to around 50km.

[Jotun]

The medium-range AD missile could be covered by IRIS-T SLM/SLX as the Swedish armed forces already use the SLS version (RBS 98).
SLM has a range of 45 km and a maximum altitude of 20 km. SLX is projected to have a range of 80 km and a maximum altitude of 30 km.

SLS has a range of 20-25km and a maximum altitude of 10 km. So the short range envelope is already covered.

Not too shabby.


Edit: Sweden is a member of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... Initiative. They are planning a three-tiered air defense system. Very long range/ABM: Arrow 3, long range: Patriot and IRIS-T SLM for medium range.

[Micael]

The medium-range AD missile could be covered by IRIS-T SLM/SLX as the Swedish armed forces already use the SLS version (RBS 98).
SLM has a range of 45 km and a maximum altitude of 20 km. SLX is projected to have a range of 80 km and a maximum altitude of 30 km.

SLS has a range of 20-25km and a maximum altitude of 10 km. So the short range envelope is already covered.

Not too shabby.


Edit: Sweden is a member of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... Initiative. They are planning a three-tiered air defense system. Very long range/ABM: Arrow 3, long range: Patriot and IRIS-T SLM for medium range.

I believe that the European Sky Shield Iniative won’t necessarily have any bearing on brigade level concepts. What comes out of that will probably only be relevant for the independent AD batallions. As far as I can tell we’ll probably have several different unit types with different AD systems. Independent batallions and companies (batallions with Patriot and IRIS-T (possibly Arrow 3 as well) or potentially with a replacement for the IRIS-T, and companies with something shorter in range), divisional levek with likely some long range system plus self defense as the IRIS-T in the independant batallions, brigade level as per this thread, and batallion level with something short/very short range. Lots of things in the works.

I also think that it’d have to be the SLX variant for this MRAM requirement as I believe it will have a radar seeker as well. Because the IRIS-T we have now with the IR seeker only is not considered all weather here, it gets in trouble in heavy fog which we can get relatively frequently in parts of the country. Plus I’m not sure how an ”under development” variant will fare in a bid right now, there’s a push to go for already available systems across the board when conducting procurements, this to cut down on delivery times and reduce the risk of delays. Excluding longer term projects of course, but I think this is being treated as a more urgent procurement.

[Zen9]

If you have Patriot as a system, CAMM has proven integration with it. Being sensor agnostic helps here.

Italy is funding CAMM-ER as Aspide successor.

Poles funding CAMM-MR as a cheaper alternative to Patriot effectors.

I'm sure MBDA can provide a variant for higher altitude if needed.

Certainly the option of domestic manufacturing license is available for negotiation. Hence Poland gaining licensed manufacturing of CAMM and Brimstone. I don't think the US has any ITAR leverage on this nor does France or Germany.

[Micael]

If you have Patriot as a system, CAMM has proven integration with it. Being sensor agnostic helps here.

Italy is funding CAMM-ER as Aspide successor.

Poles funding CAMM-MR as a cheaper alternative to Patriot effectors.

I'm sure MBDA can provide a variant for higher altitude if needed.

Certainly the option of domestic manufacturing license is available for negotiation. Hence Poland gaining licensed manufacturing of CAMM and Brimstone. I don't think the US has any ITAR leverage on this nor does France or Germany.

CAMM has a plus in that it’s already clearly proven to work with the Giraffe radars without any need for tweaking or such. That’s a system we already have and it is probably a good idea to try to not have too many different radar systems in use at the same time for ease of training, spare parts stock and so forth.

[Zen9]

Shouldn't actually matter, since CAMM only relies on bring passed target data in digital format. So the sensor, any sensor able to pass such data is viable.

[Micael]

Shouldn't actually matter, since CAMM only relies on bring passed target data in digital format. So the sensor, any sensor able to pass such data is viable.

In that sense yes, but it needs some sensor to feed it, and if it’s tried out with a sensor that we already have experience with it cuts down on trials as I’m rather certain the people involved would otherwise want to make sure that the Giraffe has suitable performance in relation to the missile performance and so forth. Ie makkng sure that the sensor component doesn’t bottleneck overall system performance.

[Jotun]

The medium-range AD missile could be covered by IRIS-T SLM/SLX as the Swedish armed forces already use the SLS version (RBS 98).
SLM has a range of 45 km and a maximum altitude of 20 km. SLX is projected to have a range of 80 km and a maximum altitude of 30 km.

SLS has a range of 20-25km and a maximum altitude of 10 km. So the short range envelope is already covered.

Not too shabby.


Edit: Sweden is a member of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... Initiative. They are planning a three-tiered air defense system. Very long range/ABM: Arrow 3, long range: Patriot and IRIS-T SLM for medium range.

I believe that the European Sky Shield Iniative won’t necessarily have any bearing on brigade level concepts. What comes out of that will probably only be relevant for the independent AD batallions. As far as I can tell we’ll probably have several different unit types with different AD systems. Independent batallions and companies (batallions with Patriot and IRIS-T (possibly Arrow 3 as well) or potentially with a replacement for the IRIS-T, and companies with something shorter in range), divisional levek with likely some long range system plus self defense as the IRIS-T in the independant batallions, brigade level as per this thread, and batallion level with something short/very short range. Lots of things in the works.

I also think that it’d have to be the SLX variant for this MRAM requirement as I believe it will have a radar seeker as well. Because the IRIS-T we have now with the IR seeker only is not considered all weather here, it gets in trouble in heavy fog which we can get relatively frequently in parts of the country. Plus I’m not sure how an ”under development” variant will fare in a bid right now, there’s a push to go for already available systems across the board when conducting procurements, this to cut down on delivery times and reduce the risk of delays. Excluding longer term projects of course, but I think this is being treated as a more urgent procurement.

- Commonality of parts
- easier logistics
- if push comes to shove, brigade level AD can be integrated into AF system based area defence

[Pdf27]

The concept as such seems reasonable, aiming to give protection against high end saturation attacks, as well as low end (drone) attacks. One thing I’m pondering is which systems fit the bill of the MRAD component, with the stated minimum 40 km range and 15 km altitude coverage. I think NASAMS 3 does, and it should be suitable from the saturation aspect as well, but CAMM-ER/MR seems to fall short in the altitude coverage. RBS-23 does have the altitude coverage, but not the range, and is not optimal in saturation scenarios. Any others that come to mind?

The SHORAD bit, perhaps CAMM could be an option there. Not sure what others fits that and the VSHORAD bit.

The Brazilian purchase of land-based CAMM has (per WIKI) a stated range of 40km and altitude of 15km. Seems a bit coincidental!

[pengolod_sc]

I don't think it's straight-up CAMM, it's called AV-MMA, and (since 2014) is being jointly developed from CAMM by MBDA and Avibras, with a view to make it compatible with the Astros II multiple rocket launcher. The 40/15 km range/ceiling comes from a Brazilian Army requirement for new medium range SAM, where AV-MMA and IRIS-T SLM are among the contenders. I searched Brazilian sites for both AV-MMA and the Brazilian Army's SAM requirement just a couple days ago - I found nothing about the former's capabilities, nor ant mention of the Brazilian Army having made a final selection and placed orders.

[Marko Dash]

I wonder how feasible a Mini-CIWS that's basically a lidar guided automatic shotgun would be vs drones. in particular as a swap in replacement for a tanks CROWS. if it's reaction speed is fast enough it could theoretically even serve as a hardkill active defense against light anti-tank rockets.

[Craiglxviii]

The concept as such seems reasonable, aiming to give protection against high end saturation attacks, as well as low end (drone) attacks. One thing I’m pondering is which systems fit the bill of the MRAD component, with the stated minimum 40 km range and 15 km altitude coverage. I think NASAMS 3 does, and it should be suitable from the saturation aspect as well, but CAMM-ER/MR seems to fall short in the altitude coverage. RBS-23 does have the altitude coverage, but not the range, and is not optimal in saturation scenarios. Any others that come to mind?

The SHORAD bit, perhaps CAMM could be an option there. Not sure what others fits that and the VSHORAD bit.

The Brazilian purchase of land-based CAMM has (per WIKI) a stated range of 40km and altitude of 15km. Seems a bit coincidental!

Huh, fancy that!!

[delfin]

Sounds to me like a beefed-up version of the new Norwegian Brigade AD Battery, which use a combination of NASAMS 3 fitted on Humvee-based high-mobility launchers (legacy equipment purchased cheaply from the cancelled US MIM-120 project) and ex-F-16 IRIS-T missiles on tracked chassis for mobility.


Battery organization



MSAM (NASAMS 3) on HML



SHORAD on ACSV G5