USS New Orleans in 1934

[David Newton]

Well the UK did invade and occupy places in WWII. Iceland and Persia are the two prime examples. Somehow neither saw massive oppression or random killings. So it's not just hypothetical to say that.

[Belushi TD]

Its not. And I was in no way implying that they did. I just found it interesting that I automatically assigned the word "invasion" to the german actions, and "Occupation" to the UK actions. Same thing with the US when we took over Iceland "occupation" duties from the UK as well.

There's a time factor involved as well. If you're first, you're invading. If you're second, and particularly if the country in question asks you to come in, then you're occupying.

I mean, as I understand it, the UK was contemplating invading Norway after the Altmark incident. There was significant planning and movement of troops. Had the Germans waited another couple or three weeks, and had more of their ships seeking refuge in Norwegian waters, it could have been the UK that "invaded" and the germans "occupying".

Belushi TD

[pengolod_sc]

That's especially true after the pasting the Kriegsmarine took during the invasion of Norway. The loss of destroyers was never made good and the significant losses of cruisers also unbalanced the fleet even more.

Considering how one of those cruisers was lost to Victorian weaponry…

The guns were from Krupp, so one might as well call them Wilhelmine. The torpedo battery (which did the actual sinking of Blücher) was completed in 1901 - Edward VII acceeded the throne 22 january that year, so I'd argue that the torpedo battery might be called Edwardian - not sure if the actual torpedos fired were as old as the torpedo battery, but the torpedos were old, having previously been used for around 200 test firings.

[M.Becker]

Is it possible they were concerned about the UK sending troops east by land from Narvik or one of the other coastal cities they occupied during the german invasion?

That would have been an option in 1940. The Allies had pushed the German invasion force into Sweden where they were disarmed. But than France fell.

In 42? IMO no way with the new defences the Germans
put place.

[Micael]

Is it possible they were concerned about the UK sending troops east by land from Narvik or one of the other coastal cities they occupied during the german invasion?

That would have been an option in 1940. The Allies had pushed the German invasion force into Sweden where they were disarmed. But than France fell.

In 42? IMO no way with the new defences the Germans
put place.

Hitler wasn’t always entirely based in reality you know.

[Craiglxviii]

That's especially true after the pasting the Kriegsmarine took during the invasion of Norway. The loss of destroyers was never made good and the significant losses of cruisers also unbalanced the fleet even more.

Considering how one of those cruisers was lost to Victorian weaponry…

The guns were from Krupp, so one might as well call them Wilhelmine. The torpedo battery (which did the actual sinking of Blücher) was completed in 1901 - Edward VII acceeded the throne 22 january that year, so I'd argue that the torpedo battery might be called Edwardian - not sure if the actual torpedos fired were as old as the torpedo battery, but the torpedos were old, having previously been used for around 200 test firings.

They were original Whitehead torpedoes iirc, but I must admit that I’ve never looked much into them.

Navweaps lists only one Whitehead torpedo used for coastal defence.

31216FB8-17A2-4D4A-B99E-DEADEDEF34C6.png

[Micael]

Considering how one of those cruisers was lost to Victorian weaponry…

The guns were from Krupp, so one might as well call them Wilhelmine. The torpedo battery (which did the actual sinking of Blücher) was completed in 1901 - Edward VII acceeded the throne 22 january that year, so I'd argue that the torpedo battery might be called Edwardian - not sure if the actual torpedos fired were as old as the torpedo battery, but the torpedos were old, having previously been used for around 200 test firings.

They were original Whitehead torpedoes iirc, but I must admit that I’ve never looked much into them.

Navweaps lists only one Whitehead torpedo used for coastal defence.
31216FB8-17A2-4D4A-B99E-DEADEDEF34C6.png

They were manufactured in Fiume, Austria-Hungary in 1906. Unsure what their exact stats were.

[Edit] Seems like they did have a 100 kg warhead so that would match the type you posted.

[Micael]

I was thinking about all of this, and it’s remarkable how relatively quickly things went from various plans to invade Sweden, to Sweden started making plans to invade and liberate Norway and Denmark (in conjunction with the respective governments) during Christmas 1943 (the operations got close to being implemented right at the end of the war but the surrender happened first.) I do wonder sometimes how they might have worked out if they had actually been put into action.

[M.Becker]

Germany wasn't able to do much to Finland after they changed sides but by that time the Allies had advanced into Belgium and closed in on the German border in the South. Might as well wait a bit more a spare Norway a forcible liberation and not take casualties yourself.

[Micael]

Germany wasn't able to do much to Finland after they changed sides but by that time the Allies had advanced into Belgium and closed in on the German border in the South. Might as well wait a bit more a spare Norway a forcible liberation and not take casualties yourself.

The reason for the plans was a concern that the German troops in those countries might withdraw back to Germany but go scorched earth on them with lots of killings in the process. The invasion plans were drawn up with the intent to stop that if it turned out that way.

[M.Becker]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Johnnie Lyle]

Germany wasn't able to do much to Finland after they changed sides but by that time the Allies had advanced into Belgium and closed in on the German border in the South. Might as well wait a bit more a spare Norway a forcible liberation and not take casualties yourself.

The reason for the plans was a concern that the German troops in those countries might withdraw back to Germany but go scorched earth on them with lots of killings in the process. The invasion plans were drawn up with the intent to stop that if it turned out that way.

How much concern was there about the Soviets?

[Micael]

Germany wasn't able to do much to Finland after they changed sides but by that time the Allies had advanced into Belgium and closed in on the German border in the South. Might as well wait a bit more a spare Norway a forcible liberation and not take casualties yourself.

The reason for the plans was a concern that the German troops in those countries might withdraw back to Germany but go scorched earth on them with lots of killings in the process. The invasion plans were drawn up with the intent to stop that if it turned out that way.

How much concern was there about the Soviets?

There was definitely concern about the Soviets, such as the prospect of them ”liberating” the two countries and then decided to stick around so to say.

With the way the war ended no Swedish troops were sent into Norway and Denmark, however the troops of Norwegian and Danish nationals that had been training and equipping in Sweden (and who were part of the invasion plans) did go in to get control and such. There were around 12,000 Norwegian troops but only 3,000 Danish ones since it was harder to get into Sweden from Denmark. This meant that there weren’t enough of them to go anywhere but into the main parts pf Copenhagen and such.

Specifically this affected the Danish island of Bornholm, which had been part of the Swedish invasion plans. The German commendant refused to surrender to Soviet troops, he wanted to surrender to the British. As a result the Soviets bombed some locations on the island, landed troops and then seemed rather unwilling to leave even though Denmark as an independent country had been restored. They only left eleven months later and for a while it loooked lile they might not leave at all.

So that was essentially a concern as well, and it seems to have been a part of why Bornholm was included in the first phase of Operation Rädda Danmark (Operation Save Denmark). With the Germans surrendering it was considered important to let the Norwegians and Danes go back alone to their countries without a much larger Swedish force accompanying them, especially for reasons of national morale and so on, to signal that they were in control and independent. So Bornholm was left alone as a result, and paid a bit of a price for that.

[Micael]

I’ll throw in a few blueprints/plans of the Sverige class ships in their original configuration here as well. Maybe some will find them interesting. The text labels are in Swedish (and some smudged to the point of unreadable) but anyway.

[Micael]

And the guns.

[Belushi TD]

Am I understanding the bottom drawing correctly in that they stored shells for the secondary armament directly inside the turret? Well, I guess its not a turret, the broadside mounting, whose technical name I am eternally shamed to be unable to remember at this precise moment.

*EDIT* CASEMENT! Remembered the name within seconds of hitting "post". *EDIT*
Belushi TD

[pengolod_sc]

That's a turret in the drawing, but the other style mounting you're thinking of is called casemate, not casement.

[M.Becker]

Am I understanding the bottom drawing correctly in that they stored shells for the secondary armament directly inside the turret? Well, I guess its not a turret, the broadside mounting, whose technical name I am eternally shamed to be unable to remember at this precise moment.

*EDIT* CASEMENT! Remembered the name within seconds of hitting "post". *EDIT*
Belushi TD

That are turrets. A casement is this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New ... 13046).jpg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_D ... 182445.jpg

[Micael]

Am I understanding the bottom drawing correctly in that they stored shells for the secondary armament directly inside the turret? Well, I guess its not a turret, the broadside mounting, whose technical name I am eternally shamed to be unable to remember at this precise moment.

*EDIT* CASEMENT! Remembered the name within seconds of hitting "post". *EDIT*
Belushi TD

I don’t know exacrly how it worked but it gives the impression that there were some shells in the turret, that were gradually replenished from below. There’s munitions storage for those turrets marked below them in the deck plans.

[M.Becker]

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSweden_6-50_m1912.php

The guns used separate ammo. If only AP shells were in the turret and the propellant bags below deck, that's save. Anything that sets off the shells will kill anyone in the turret several times over anyway.