History, Politics And Current Affairs

Perhaps the second sentence could be debated, but this is a thread about the passing of Mr. Koenig, rather than one on the icon status of a 60s children’s show.

I guess it does depend on where you are coming from, in terms of time and geography. It does appear that it was a big thing for a lot of chaps here, so vale Mr. Koenig.

Nathan45 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2026 9:14 am Depends on your age I suppose, Babylon 5 was great but it was always more of a niche, almost cult classic. Star Trek is iconic, even to those who have never watched it.

Babylon 5 had a much greater impact than you might imagine.

In and of itself it never became mainstream, but it was really the first show on American TV to actually have a continuing storyline where things didn't simply reset at the end of virtually every episode. Compare it to ST:TNG. Yes there were occasional episodes of that which had longer term consequences such as The Best of Both Worlds, but the vast majority of them did not really have anything besides a completely self-contained story. ST:DS9 on the other hand started fairly like that, but shifted to a much more ongoing story with consequential episodes in later seasons. Why? Babylon 5.

There is an interaction between the two that I think is one of the funnier outtakes around:

https://youtu.be/gCmpDfHMnjA?si=j41i1iSSlrNPjj5g

The episode the outtake is from was called Severed Dreams. It was almost exactly at the halfway point of the show's 5 year run and saw the culmination of the first part of a plot where the Earth Alliance stops being a democracy and instead becomes a dictatorship. General Hague, the character referenced, was CJCS and a key figure working against those making the EA a dictatorship. The actor was double-booked and was thus killed off off screen during the space battle at the start of Severed Dreams.

Look at the number of shows on American television which shifted from a reset at the end of the episode format to more of an ongoing story format around the mid-1990s. Babylon 5 did that.

As for Koenig? Originally he was going to appear in the B5 episode And The Sky Full of Stars, the eighth episode of the first season of the show. He would have played a character with an important role in unravelling the mystery of why the heck the Minbari surrendered at the Battle of the Line 10 years before the first season of the show is set, but a character that would only appear in said episode. Koenig suffered a heart attack, and as a result was still recovering from it when filming for the episode took place. Straczynski wrote the role of Alfred Bester for him, appearing in the episode Mind War, as a result and the rest is history.

Bester was probably the most important guest starring character in the entire show. 12 episodes out of 110, so over 10% of the show's episodes had him in it. The portrayal of him that Koenig gave was masterful. Physically short, yet psychologically dominating and utterly chilling.

David Newton wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2026 10:12 am Babylon 5 had a much greater impact than you might imagine.

In and of itself it never became mainstream, but it was really the first show on American TV to actually have a continuing storyline where things didn't simply reset at the end of virtually every episode.

Didn't know that, interesting! IMHO it definitely makes for more interesting shows.

I never watched B5 (though it sounds like it would be interesting, if I ever had the time to watch anything) but I remember watching reruns of TOS and some early TNG with my dad when I was little.

General Haig above

Admiral Leyton below

I had thought that the X-Files did the 'no resetting world' a bit earlier, and it is quite possible there were others before then. Interesting to find out in any case.

This fellow looked very much like that singer from The Monkeys when he was younger, by the look of it.

Simon Darkshade wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2026 10:33 am I had thought that the X-Files did the 'no resetting world' a bit earlier, and it is quite possible there were others before then. Interesting to find out in any case.

This fellow looked very much like that singer from The Monkeys when he was younger, by the look of it.

It is sometimes said to be one of the reasons he was picked.

Very interesting.

As someone who hasn't watched really any Star Trek (I saw a bit of the Khan movie 15 years ago and recently saw the F-104 episode of the 1960s series), would it be better to start with the 1960s series or the movies first?

If any of you still haven't seen babylon 5, watch it. All the episodes are free now.

You will have to give some allowance for the special effects and the budget in general, but its worth it.

gtg947h wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2026 10:22 am

David Newton wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2026 10:12 am Babylon 5 had a much greater impact than you might imagine.

In and of itself it never became mainstream, but it was really the first show on American TV to actually have a continuing storyline where things didn't simply reset at the end of virtually every episode.

Didn't know that, interesting! IMHO it definitely makes for more interesting shows.

I never watched B5 (though it sounds like it would be interesting, if I ever had the time to watch anything) but I remember watching reruns of TOS and some early TNG with my dad when I was little.

B5 is definitely worth watching if you're a fan of well done science fiction. The pilot TV movie The Gathering is of a far lesser standard than the series itself. However it is still worth watching as it kick-starts a number of important plot points.

The first season is far better then The Gathering, but still nowhere near the standard of seasons 2, 3 and 4. However there are still has some extremely good episodes. I've already referenced Mind War and And the Sky Full of Stars. Other very good episodes are Signs and Portents, Babylon Squared, A Voice in the Wilderness (one of only two two part episodes in the entire show, the other being one that links together both A Voice in the Wilderness and Babylon Squared) and Chrysalis. Episodes in the first season that come closest to being stinkers are Infection, Survivors and By Any Means Necessary. A general rule of thumb is that the more arc (ongoing storyline content) an episode has, the better it is. Infection et al are not awful TV, but they're far less strong.

Another thing that's remarkable about B5 how much Straczynski, the show's creator (known by the abbreviation JMS) wrote. There are two things that are remarkable in this. One is that out of 110 episodes of the show he wrote 90 of them. The first season was the one where he wrote fewest with 12 out of 22 episodes. All of the ones I have highlighted as being particularly good in that season were written by him. He also wrote every single episode of the show from season 2 episode 18 to season 5 episode 3. 52 episodes in a row.

B5 also pioneered the use of CGI for VFX on mainstream television. All of the space shots were created as CGI. For 30 year old effects they still stand up fairly well. The CGI allowed the creation of far more unique effects footage shots than other shows of a similar vintage. They certainly reused some CGI, particularly for intermission shots of the outside of the station. However the sheer number of different vessels they could come up with is remarkable.

There was also an interesting interaction between US TV and UK TV for some episodes: some episodes had their world premier on UK TV! Because it was a syndicated show with no home network its transmission schedule was a lot more bitty in the US. Few episodes, break, few episodes, break etc. In the UK on the other hand it was generally shown in one block, which meant the UK scheduling gradually caught up with the US scheduling. During the first three seasons the UK TV scheduling actually overtook the US scheduling. The season 1 finale showed on Channel 4 in the UK 3 weeks before it showed in the US. The last 4 season two episodes were shown first in the UK, about two and a half months before they were shown in the US! The last 5 episodes of season 3 were shown first in the UK, between 4 and 6 weeks before they aired in the US.

I'm not aware of any other US TV show where that's happened, let alone where 10 episodes out of 110 total were first shown in the UK.

Oh and they also managed to do blatant product placement (a Kawasaki motorcycle) in a way that fitted in with the characters of the show and also even manages to provoke at least some amusement right at the end of the episode.

So I'd definitely say that it's worth watching for a remarkable story with very good acting and also so that you can appreciate its place in television history. Returning to Koenig and his legacy, I'd say that Bester is the role he should be remembered for. A far deeper and more interesting character than Chekov. A character typical of the quality of Babylon 5's depth and interest.

Simon Darkshade wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2026 10:33 am I had thought that the X-Files did the 'no resetting world' a bit earlier, and it is quite possible there were others before then. Interesting to find out in any case.

This fellow looked very much like that singer from The Monkeys when he was younger, by the look of it.

The thing that Babylon 5 had was a planned storyline right from the start. JMS came in with an overall story he wanted to tell. There was some disruption to it due to TV politics etc, but overall he achieved what he set out to achieve. There are other shows where something from a season one episode turns that was apparently a throwaway thing turns out to be critically important later on. Those shows generally did not pre-plan such moments. Babylon 5 has that, but it's absolutely deliberate in its case. For example a guest character in Born to the Purple, season 1 episode 3, turns out to be critically important mid to late season 3.

Koenig's first episode of Mind War establishes Psi Corps in the series, setting up its extraordinarily questionable morality and ethics, its thuggery and its subversion of institutions. The black uniforms with jackboots theme for the Psi Cops very much set the tone.