Dark Earth: History of the Tank

[Eaglenine2]

The British armored Division has an armoured reconaissance regiment of two light tank and two armoured car regiments?

[Simon Darkshade]

Yes, that is part of the paper TOE of a 1939 Armoured Division.

It reflects a different doctrinal evolution of the composition, purpose and role of the armoured division that comes from the very different background detailed here.

It goes back to the structure of the Experimental Armoured Force, (@ EMF):

Their original structure was:
- Brigade HQ
- two medium tank battalions,
- a mechanized machine gun battalion,
- a mechanized field artillery regiment equipped with 25pdr Birch Guns,
- a motorized infantry battalion,
- a mobile reconaissance group of armoured cars and tankettes
- a mechanized field company of Royal Engineers

This differs from the historical TOE in the addition of the extra tank battalion, but the rest is very much based in @.

From there, we get our first major departure in the form of expansion to a division in 1928.

The next is the continuation of Heavy, Medium and Light as the major distinction of tank types, rather than going down the fork of Infantry and Cruiser tanks. A small matter of nomenclature, but also of doctrine.

The 1939 TOE was:

- HQ and Support:
- - Div HQ
- - Divisional Signals, Royal Corps of Signals
- - Divisional Engineers, Royal Engineers
- - Royal Army Service Corps Det
- - HQ Royal Army Medical Corps
- - Royal Army Ordnance Corps
- - Royal Military Police Company
- - HQ Defence Company
- - Independent MG Co RMGC

- Armoured Brigade:
- - Medium Tank Regiment (54 Crusader or Valiant)
- - Medium Tank Regiment (54 Crusader or Valiant)
- - Mechanised Infantry Battalion
- - LAA Btty (16 x 40mm)
- - MMG Co RMCG
- - RHA Regt (32 x 25pdr SP)
- - Field Sqn RE

- Armoured Brigade:
- - Medium Tank Regiment (54 Crusader or Valiant)
- - Medium Tank Regiment (54 Crusader or Valiant)
- - Mechanised Infantry Battalion
- - LAA Btty (16 x 40mm)
- - MMG Co RMCG
- - RHA Regt (32 x 25pdr SP)
- - Field Sqn RE

- Armoured Infantry Brigade
- - Mechanised Infantry Battalion
- - Mechanised Infantry Battalion
- - Medium Tank Regiment
- - Medium Tank Regiment
- - LAA Btty (16 x 40mm)
- - MMG Co RMCG
- - RHA Regt (32 x 25pdr SP)
- - Field Sqn RE

- Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment/Brigade (Note 1)
- - Light Tank Regiment
- - Light Tank Regiment
- - Armoured Car Regiment
- - Armoured Car Regiment

- Artillery Brigade
- - Medium SP Regt RHA (24 x 6” and 1 btty of 8 Catapult MRL)
- - AT Regt (64 x 12pdr)
- - AA Regt (24 x 3.75” AA)

Note 1: Designed in theory to be able to split up and operate in support of each armoured brigade

[jemhouston]

Thanks for the update

[Simon Darkshade]

This is a repost of a 2015/2016 history, as it doesn’t look like we are going to get anything out of the archive, so I’m posting up (at the very least) the stories, fact files, orbats and histories from my own copies. Missing out on the comments, questions and debates is a sad part.

[Jotun]

So when, if at all will the DE version of the Rh 120mm/L44 gun make an appearance? In @, development began in 1965 and it was introduced together with the Leopard 2 in 1979.

[Simon Darkshade]

120mm as a calibre has been left behind, so to speak, already by 1961.

The 1960s tanks have the following armaments:

Chieftain: Royal Ordnance L24 125mm/50
AMX-30: Canon de de 125 mm modèle F1
M60: M87 125mm/50
Leopard: 128mm L/60

It is possible that there will be a rise in calibre for the Next Generation of tanks (ie after the Crusader and M70) but that will depend on a number of factors. The 6” armed heavy/superheavy Western tanks provide a lot of bang for a lot of weight.

[Kunkmiester]

Wasn't part of the idea that you could get better AP performance from APFSDS without having to go to a larger caliber? I suppose if you have to worry about magical beasts on the battlefield anti armor capability is not as paramount as it would be in @.

[Simon Darkshade]

The brief answer is that this history was written in universe in 1960, before the development of such weapons. Only a few of the second generation of MBTs had entered service by that point (T-62, M60 and the Chieftain), with their most advanced weapon being the APDS round.

The interest in larger rounds comes from the relative success of the 1950s heavy tanks in the ‘non tank battle’ missions of fire support, demolishing buildings and oversight. Once there is a large tank on tank engagement, there will be more data to inform judgment; at present, there has been a lack of these since WW2, with Korea seeing some, but not on a large scale.

The interesting difference that has emerged is that while the Red Army has more tanks than the West, it is the latter who have the nigh on universally acknowledged qualitative edge. It is Moscow trying to play catch up in design, with the frontal armour of the M60 and Chieftain effectively invulnerable to all Soviet tank guns until the mid-late 1960s, when the newest guns on the T-64 and T-68 provide some measure of catch up.

So it isn’t a matter of different creatures, but of the time of the work and the situations that have driven it.

[bobbins66]

Great to have a chance to re read this. Thanks!