I'm curious as to why Austria-Hungary would be lagging so far in nuclear development. I could easily see them being last of the great powers to acquire them, but it seems odd to have them falling behind Yugoslavia, South America, etc.Simon Darkshade wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:47 pm 1970 Nuclear Arsenals
USA: 64,256
USSR: 28,274
Britain: 12,432
France: 3695
China: 2971
Canada: 1254
Italy: 426
Sweden: 280
Spain: 250
Australia: 240
India: 234
Israel: 180
South Africa: 120
Greece: 87
Brazil: 72
Turkey: 69
Netherlands: 64
Indonesia: 56
Switzerland: 50
Argentina: 42
Belgium: 40
Japan: 32
Yugoslavia: 25
New Zealand: 12
Chile: 5
Norway: 4
Vatican: 2
Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Being next door to Germany, which is also absent from the list due to being one of the Axis powers of WW2. Italy wriggled out from its restrictions due to swapping sides and being seen by the three major Western allied powers as being very useful in playing off against the others as well as counterbalancing the Soviets.
Additionally, there are the (never formally laid out) Soviet conditions in the Stockholm Conference of 1961, whereby they would acquiesce to some relative normalisation of Western relations with respect to Germany (really a fait accompli given the borders) in exchange for relations with Red Poland and certain guarantees on no German atomics and no Austro-Hungarian moves in that direction for 10 years. Rightly or wrongly enough, an Austrian bomb was seen as a back door to a German one.
AH is the next major state that will formally go nuclear, with the Soviet reaction likely to be a great degree of public anger and outrage that is largely confected. Their strategic position is sufficiently advanced in 10 years and there has been a great deal of work done on ABM and other means of constraining nuclear weapons.
Additionally, there are the (never formally laid out) Soviet conditions in the Stockholm Conference of 1961, whereby they would acquiesce to some relative normalisation of Western relations with respect to Germany (really a fait accompli given the borders) in exchange for relations with Red Poland and certain guarantees on no German atomics and no Austro-Hungarian moves in that direction for 10 years. Rightly or wrongly enough, an Austrian bomb was seen as a back door to a German one.
AH is the next major state that will formally go nuclear, with the Soviet reaction likely to be a great degree of public anger and outrage that is largely confected. Their strategic position is sufficiently advanced in 10 years and there has been a great deal of work done on ABM and other means of constraining nuclear weapons.
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Is Austria (-Hungary) suffering from the same self-delusion that their country is merely the first victim of Nazism and really had nothing to do with any crimes, truly, as it was/is in @?
That one is the main reason why I cannot stand that shitty little country.
That one is the main reason why I cannot stand that shitty little country.
- jemhouston
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
I always thought the first victim of the Nazis were Germans. They also started it.Jotun wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:43 pm Is Austria (-Hungary) suffering from the same self-delusion that their country is merely the first victim of Nazism and really had nothing to do with any crimes, truly, as it was/is in @?
That one is the main reason why I cannot stand that shitty little country.
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
No.
AH had their own local Fascist/Nazi party in the form of the Kronists of Rudolf Eisen, which were the usual mixed bag of thugs, idiots and opportunists. They took power in 1935-39, initially as part of a coalition:
1935
Emperor Karl of Austria-Hungary is assassinated in Budapest by a Hungarian ultra-nationalist, plunging the Empire into deep civil unrest. With Archduke Otto abroad in America, both German nationalists and Communists in Vienna attempt a coup which is put down bloodily. Elements in the Austro-Hungarian Army move to restore order and take effective control of Austria and Bohemia, with local forces in Croatia and Carniola acting in support. A second coup in Budapest sees Hungarian Communists unilaterally declaring independence, with 250,000 federal troops moving to invade in response
- After several months of internal strife, a conservative coalition government, which includes Kronists, backed by the Army takes control and suppresses the separatist Hungarian communists. Archduke Otto returns to prepare for his coronation in a significantly different Empire than the one he had left five years previously
1936
Elections in Austria-Hungary are inconclusive, with the governing Nationalist/Conservative/Kronist coalition making a small amount of headway against the Social Democrats
- The Treaty of Salzburg is signed by Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary. It contains articles of non-aggression, commercial cooperation and reduction of tariff barriers. British voices including Churchill is highly critical of the treaty, which is seen by many others in Europe as a poorly disguised move towards the Anti-Comintern Pact powers by the Austro-Hungarian Government. Kaiser Otto is increasingly sidelined and is quite disturbed by developments
1937
Emperor Otto of Austria-Hungary, increasingly sidelined by the German-backed government, begins to gather support for a counter coup to reassert his authority
- Austria-Hungary and Germany sign a Treaty of Commercial and Industrial Cooperation, paving the way for the establishment of a number of new joint companies and facilities, the first of which is a large steelworks, the Eisenwerke Oberdonau
- Violence again rocks Vienna as paramilitaries loyal to the Emperor and unusually well armed Kronists clash in the streets. The Austrian Government of Rudolf Eisen hastily accepts a German offer of military support and large German Army forces cross the border
- After several uncertain days, Austrian and German troops restore order in Vienna, with 13 year old Archduke Heinrich being installed as a puppet Emperor. Emperor Otto and several thousand supporters flee into exile in Romania, where they are secretly greeted by a number of British and French representatives.
- The Austro-Hungarian Imperial Family and Government in Exile finally settles in Paris. Over the next 18 months, over 120,000 civilians and military personnel trickle out of Austria-Hungary to the West via Poland and Romania
In 1939, the Kronists muscle their way to the top and sideline their one time partners. Eisen, despite his assumed name, is no Hitler or even a Mussolini, and has a power base in Austria, large parts of Bohemia and Slovenia, with Hungary being lead alongside by Gyula Gömbös‘s Arrow Cross Party. This does shake up the relatively shaky nature of Austria-Hungary.
They had their own atrocities, with only their shorter time in power constraining the scope and extent of them. Thus, there isn’t the ‘first victim’ narrative postwar, but rather one of ‘This all happened because we allowed the growth of wicked fascist parties who drew us back into a self damaging alliance with Nazi Germany. Not again.’
AH only really survives as it is ‘liberated’/invaded by mainly British lead forces (8th Army from Italy and Blackadder’s forced pushing up from the Balkans) before the Soviets can break through the Carpathians. Keeping it together as a counterbalance to the USSR and (a potentially feared) Germany was seen as the least worst solution, as a shattered collection of Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Hungary and Austria would simply be meat for the Reds to pick off, one at a time. The added ‘bonus’ factor was the legitimate Kaiser Otto being restored by the small co belligerent loyalist Imperial Army; he has quite the force of personality and is viewed as a popular unifying figure.
Postwar, AH is strongly Social Democrat/Labour, opposing the Commies from the Centre Left and keeping a firm watch over any resurgent neo fascist groups.
AH had their own local Fascist/Nazi party in the form of the Kronists of Rudolf Eisen, which were the usual mixed bag of thugs, idiots and opportunists. They took power in 1935-39, initially as part of a coalition:
1935
Emperor Karl of Austria-Hungary is assassinated in Budapest by a Hungarian ultra-nationalist, plunging the Empire into deep civil unrest. With Archduke Otto abroad in America, both German nationalists and Communists in Vienna attempt a coup which is put down bloodily. Elements in the Austro-Hungarian Army move to restore order and take effective control of Austria and Bohemia, with local forces in Croatia and Carniola acting in support. A second coup in Budapest sees Hungarian Communists unilaterally declaring independence, with 250,000 federal troops moving to invade in response
- After several months of internal strife, a conservative coalition government, which includes Kronists, backed by the Army takes control and suppresses the separatist Hungarian communists. Archduke Otto returns to prepare for his coronation in a significantly different Empire than the one he had left five years previously
1936
Elections in Austria-Hungary are inconclusive, with the governing Nationalist/Conservative/Kronist coalition making a small amount of headway against the Social Democrats
- The Treaty of Salzburg is signed by Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary. It contains articles of non-aggression, commercial cooperation and reduction of tariff barriers. British voices including Churchill is highly critical of the treaty, which is seen by many others in Europe as a poorly disguised move towards the Anti-Comintern Pact powers by the Austro-Hungarian Government. Kaiser Otto is increasingly sidelined and is quite disturbed by developments
1937
Emperor Otto of Austria-Hungary, increasingly sidelined by the German-backed government, begins to gather support for a counter coup to reassert his authority
- Austria-Hungary and Germany sign a Treaty of Commercial and Industrial Cooperation, paving the way for the establishment of a number of new joint companies and facilities, the first of which is a large steelworks, the Eisenwerke Oberdonau
- Violence again rocks Vienna as paramilitaries loyal to the Emperor and unusually well armed Kronists clash in the streets. The Austrian Government of Rudolf Eisen hastily accepts a German offer of military support and large German Army forces cross the border
- After several uncertain days, Austrian and German troops restore order in Vienna, with 13 year old Archduke Heinrich being installed as a puppet Emperor. Emperor Otto and several thousand supporters flee into exile in Romania, where they are secretly greeted by a number of British and French representatives.
- The Austro-Hungarian Imperial Family and Government in Exile finally settles in Paris. Over the next 18 months, over 120,000 civilians and military personnel trickle out of Austria-Hungary to the West via Poland and Romania
In 1939, the Kronists muscle their way to the top and sideline their one time partners. Eisen, despite his assumed name, is no Hitler or even a Mussolini, and has a power base in Austria, large parts of Bohemia and Slovenia, with Hungary being lead alongside by Gyula Gömbös‘s Arrow Cross Party. This does shake up the relatively shaky nature of Austria-Hungary.
They had their own atrocities, with only their shorter time in power constraining the scope and extent of them. Thus, there isn’t the ‘first victim’ narrative postwar, but rather one of ‘This all happened because we allowed the growth of wicked fascist parties who drew us back into a self damaging alliance with Nazi Germany. Not again.’
AH only really survives as it is ‘liberated’/invaded by mainly British lead forces (8th Army from Italy and Blackadder’s forced pushing up from the Balkans) before the Soviets can break through the Carpathians. Keeping it together as a counterbalance to the USSR and (a potentially feared) Germany was seen as the least worst solution, as a shattered collection of Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Hungary and Austria would simply be meat for the Reds to pick off, one at a time. The added ‘bonus’ factor was the legitimate Kaiser Otto being restored by the small co belligerent loyalist Imperial Army; he has quite the force of personality and is viewed as a popular unifying figure.
Postwar, AH is strongly Social Democrat/Labour, opposing the Commies from the Centre Left and keeping a firm watch over any resurgent neo fascist groups.
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
The Austrians did not care, they needed a narrative to feel good about themselves and a founding myth.jemhouston wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:59 pmI always thought the first victim of the Nazis were Germans. They also started it.Jotun wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:43 pm Is Austria (-Hungary) suffering from the same self-delusion that their country is merely the first victim of Nazism and really had nothing to do with any crimes, truly, as it was/is in @?
That one is the main reason why I cannot stand that shitty little country.
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
As outlined above, that isn’t the case here, particularly given the Empire extending beyond Austria proper.
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Thank you, that more than covers itSimon Darkshade wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:12 am No.
AH had their own local Fascist/Nazi party in the form of the Kronists of Rudolf Eisen, which were the usual mixed bag of thugs, idiots and opportunists. They took power in 1935-39, initially as part of a coalition:
1935
Emperor Karl of Austria-Hungary is assassinated in Budapest by a Hungarian ultra-nationalist, plunging the Empire into deep civil unrest. With Archduke Otto abroad in America, both German nationalists and Communists in Vienna attempt a coup which is put down bloodily. Elements in the Austro-Hungarian Army move to restore order and take effective control of Austria and Bohemia, with local forces in Croatia and Carniola acting in support. A second coup in Budapest sees Hungarian Communists unilaterally declaring independence, with 250,000 federal troops moving to invade in response
- After several months of internal strife, a conservative coalition government, which includes Kronists, backed by the Army takes control and suppresses the separatist Hungarian communists. Archduke Otto returns to prepare for his coronation in a significantly different Empire than the one he had left five years previously
1936
Elections in Austria-Hungary are inconclusive, with the governing Nationalist/Conservative/Kronist coalition making a small amount of headway against the Social Democrats
- The Treaty of Salzburg is signed by Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary. It contains articles of non-aggression, commercial cooperation and reduction of tariff barriers. British voices including Churchill is highly critical of the treaty, which is seen by many others in Europe as a poorly disguised move towards the Anti-Comintern Pact powers by the Austro-Hungarian Government. Kaiser Otto is increasingly sidelined and is quite disturbed by developments
1937
Emperor Otto of Austria-Hungary, increasingly sidelined by the German-backed government, begins to gather support for a counter coup to reassert his authority
- Austria-Hungary and Germany sign a Treaty of Commercial and Industrial Cooperation, paving the way for the establishment of a number of new joint companies and facilities, the first of which is a large steelworks, the Eisenwerke Oberdonau
- Violence again rocks Vienna as paramilitaries loyal to the Emperor and unusually well armed Kronists clash in the streets. The Austrian Government of Rudolf Eisen hastily accepts a German offer of military support and large German Army forces cross the border
- After several uncertain days, Austrian and German troops restore order in Vienna, with 13 year old Archduke Heinrich being installed as a puppet Emperor. Emperor Otto and several thousand supporters flee into exile in Romania, where they are secretly greeted by a number of British and French representatives.
- The Austro-Hungarian Imperial Family and Government in Exile finally settles in Paris. Over the next 18 months, over 120,000 civilians and military personnel trickle out of Austria-Hungary to the West via Poland and Romania
In 1939, the Kronists muscle their way to the top and sideline their one time partners. Eisen, despite his assumed name, is no Hitler or even a Mussolini, and has a power base in Austria, large parts of Bohemia and Slovenia, with Hungary being lead alongside by Gyula Gömbös‘s Arrow Cross Party. This does shake up the relatively shaky nature of Austria-Hungary.
They had their own atrocities, with only their shorter time in power constraining the scope and extent of them. Thus, there isn’t the ‘first victim’ narrative postwar, but rather one of ‘This all happened because we allowed the growth of wicked fascist parties who drew us back into a self damaging alliance with Nazi Germany. Not again.’
AH only really survives as it is ‘liberated’/invaded by mainly British lead forces (8th Army from Italy and Blackadder’s forced pushing up from the Balkans) before the Soviets can break through the Carpathians. Keeping it together as a counterbalance to the USSR and (a potentially feared) Germany was seen as the least worst solution, as a shattered collection of Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Hungary and Austria would simply be meat for the Reds to pick off, one at a time. The added ‘bonus’ factor was the legitimate Kaiser Otto being restored by the small co belligerent loyalist Imperial Army; he has quite the force of personality and is viewed as a popular unifying figure.
Postwar, AH is strongly Social Democrat/Labour, opposing the Commies from the Centre Left and keeping a firm watch over any resurgent neo fascist groups.
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
You’re more than welcome. I always like the opportunity to flesh out the world and it’s history and I’ve particularly liked your questions and comments on Germany over the years.
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
1971 Notes Part 2
April
- The washing of lions at the Tower Menagerie was one of the first recorded April Fool’s jokes
- Bob Hawke gets in as Australian Labour Party (note the spelling) leader much earlier in the absence of a certain other figure. Having him as a teetotaller is a little fun Easter Egg
- Conquistador is a completely fictional film, with the big stars joined by Emilio Delgado (Luis from Sesame Street in @). On Earth, the epoch of the classic Hollywood historical epic was fading in preference to the 1970s New Hollywood dross, which was far more inward looking. The historical epic, like its cousin the sword and sandal picture, really died out from the mid 1970s onwards (with the epic mini series having an Indian summer through the 1980s) and only really reemerged with Gladiator in 2000. Here, it is still in its pomp for some time to come, rather than the @ diet of mafiosi, oh so daring swearing, titilating nudity and the grim sense of post Watergate and Vietnam loss of innocence
- After a lot of (Defence and anti-Continental related) footdragging, a Channel Tunnel begins construction. It is a different one, with the ability to disable it from the surface
- Frances Phipps makes her historical flight to the North Pole, but it is quite the significant place…
- Plans for Irish defence are not driven by an overt internal or external threat, but rather a much more robust emphasis on defence by the British establishment. Ireland is the back door into the rest of the British Isles in their view. The whole business of Home Defence is treated more seriously, as the @ policy of "We're going to be atomised, so no use spending or trying anything" (very much simplified) is not in place. There are very serious experts looking very seriously towards the post-nuclear age of modern warfare, something that we have never had
- The Brazilian Vespa is similar to the Helwan HA-300 of @ in role and purpose
- The asteroid interception was a bit heavy duty. There have been @ studies were 330ft asteroids were completely destroyed by single 1 megaton warheads. This one was 600ft long but was hit by 16 missiles with 5 megaton warheads. Rather overkill, but it is early days in working out the kinks from the system
- Sir Denzil Carey is positioning himself for the fourth TV channel in 1974; something else will debut in 1972 to join the BBC and ITV (Imperial Television network). He is in a similar niche to Murdoch in @, but is as different as chalk and cheese. The general shape as I see it playing out is Channel 1 (BBC), Channel 2 (ITV), Channel 3 (One of the @ ITV Big 4/5), Channel 4 (Carey’s channel), Channel 5 (another developed a la Channel 3) and Channel 6 (something different…)
- 1914 wins Best Picture and George C. Scott wins for Patton; the latter is described as a hero of WW2 and Korea
- The ARPANET meeting of supercomputer AIs is fairly staid, limited to chess, japes and sports scores; think Holly in Red Dwarf
- McDonalds not only goes for an earlier breakfast menu, but has parallels to the McChicken and McRib quite a bit before @. The little added bit about their burgers being cooked medium rare provides a little bit of dissonance compared to their tasteless @ burgers
- Sierra Leone is moving at a slow pace towards Dominion status, which here doesn’t mean full independence, but rather something akin to Francafrique with teeth and plenty of strings attached. The matter has been debated for a number of years and comes up in A New Jerusalem when discussed by the Queen and Barton. Any complete independence like in @ (which often lead to many coups, Soviet influence or outright bases and general washing of hands) isn’t on the cards. Rather, the recently independent African Dominions (Uganda, Tanganyika, Nigeria, Ashante Federation, Cameroon and Sudan) are encouraged to take part in regional arrangements; get their lavish aid packages with plenty of conditions; have their militaries largely officered by seconded British officers; have quite powerful and influential Governors-General; can call upon British troops for aid and know that they will come; and have very clear red lines on what can’t be done, which usually only extends to no going Red, no alterations to constitutional arrangements without legitimate referendums, no costing up to the other blocs, no dictatorial carry on and no anti-Western/anti-British violence. This is combined with a Francafrique type approach which sees the Paras used in a similar role to the French Foreign Legion. It absolutely isn’t true independence, but is rather independence with trainer wheels on, which is inherently unfair. There is a fair bit of scope to move within that, though, and there is flexibility for arrangements like Senegambia
- The injured Vietnam veterans featured on NPR are William 'One Eye' Clinton, Bruce Springsteen, Donald Trump and Lt. Dan from Forrest Gump
- Ray guns/lasers are starting to make an appearance
- Judicial corporal punishment remains very much on the books in British law, even as it isn’t used quite as much as in previous decades
- Bruce Lee foils a robbery aided by Hong Kong Phooey and Paul Kersey from Death Wish
- The British census has a great deal of information about the different status of the country as compared to @
- The SR-71 flight over Laos saw nothing strange at all. These nice men in black were very persuasive
- A sixth airport for London
- The Anglo-Indian lutenist is Peter Sarstedt
- French Musketeers and Italian Legionaries are two groups very devoted to their images
May
- Oh my gosh, I enriched Kenny’s dad! And, most likely, ensured that he never dabbles in the Cult of Cthulhu; I may find some less nasty means of giving Kenny superpowers, as he is one of the best/nicest/good South Park characters along with Butters. Additionally, Cartman has a recognisable and quite normal father, which could influence his character development
- The Towering Inferno is resolved without deaths thanks to Steve McQueen, a fairly super man and a ‘spider man’
- The Torquay hotelier, call him ‘Basil’ was somewhat justified in his actions, according to him, as the Spanish waiter “knew nothing”
- Mary Rose comes up sooner and in one whole piece. Magic
- Empire Windrush is known not for any role in West Indian migration, but as a footnote to history involved in the Korean War and nuclear tests
- The Chilean mining is simmering towards a climax, with slightly different drivers present affecting the scope for nationalisation
- German/Austrian moves edging towards The Bomb are longer term in the former case, as well as being separate to provide some degree of plausible deniability
- The death of Cassius Clay is a tragic event, as I telegraphed a not too good end to the fight with him being knocked out of the very ring; boxing is an inherently dangerous sport. Clay has a reputation as a great boxer without quite making the jump to being a pop culture figure
- Discoveries in Gobekli Tepe point towards antediluvian civilisation, with the statue of a Golden Condor being something some might recognise…
- SLAM going off course rather dramatically on its first test flight is based on the Snark ending up in NE Brazil; the tractor beam facility indicates some very advanced technology
- Krav Maga Jewish warrior monks are a sign of some very different developments in medieval Judaism, as well as the classical era ones arising from the Sicarii and Maccabees
- The Paras get a bit of action in Sudan in just the type of manner described in April. The light 25pdrs are new weapons rather than retreads
- Affairs at the KAMAZ plant in the USSR show the CIA up to mischief to encourage Soviet paranoia
- The Solsbury Hill sequence is of course a reference to the Peter Gabriel song
- The tankero hunters Aimo’s Strange Journey are a bit of a twin yolked Finnish Easter Egg, which is a collection of words quite rarely used before. I do recommend looking up Aimo Koivunen for the sheer interest of his story
- French nuclear power begins to move down similar lines to @, albeit without the same immediate driver of the oil shock
- Stewart v Clark in the Grand Prix is a further example of the relative British dominance of Formula One
- The Soviet Tu-154 flight to NYC attracts a lot of attention for any tidbits that can be discovered or observed
- West Indian cricket is about to enter its real pomp with the debut of Viv Richards and Greenidge later in the year, allowing them to play alongside Sobers as well as the rest of their collection of stars; a further factor to be considered is the addition of Cuba as part of the WI, with many of its baseball players being available. South Africa is also not exiled from Test cricket and they have a very, very strong team at this point
- British shipbuilding tonnage spikes this year due to the completion of the big supertankers, along with oil rigs and the generally increasing size of all kinds of merchant ships. Japan and then South Korea were able to streak away from the West and the Rest with the combination of the size of ships and the death of competing industries, but there is a different paradigm here
- Orinoco Flow is a reference to the eponymous Enya song
- The English Electric Broadsword is intended to replace the Thunderbird and a large number of Bloodhounds and has a very hot performance and range comparable to the Patriot and SA-10; it has an anti-aircraft and anti-missile capacity
- Red Sun is a slightly different picture on account of Audie Murphy still being around
- The Liberty Line/DMZ is turning into the type of heavily fortified position that the comparison to the Maginot Line is not entirely hyperbole. It is in the interests of both Vietnams to have an airtight border
June
- The BR Class A25 Advanced High Speed Train is not our grandfather's steam engine, but a fully modernised one that as said can easily do the required 200mph; the larger ones go at 375mph. They are arcanely boosted with a few other developments, but the trains themselves are based on a combination of locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/ACE_3000 , en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5AT_Advanced_Technology_Steam_Locomotive and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A4_4468_Mallard . The locomotives in general are much bigger than the ones of @, reflecting the larger loading gauge and broad gauge standard; Brunel won out early on in the Age of Rail rather than being an anomaly. Steam was chosen for a number of reasons. First of all, there is sheer inertia as it has been the dominant locomotive source of power in Britain to this point, with diesel not really making a significant inroad and electrification mainly confined to the south; secondly, it makes broad socio-economic sense in that it employs British coal that is still dug up by a politically important industry, particularly with its sharp decline for power generation use due to the rise of nuclear power; thirdly, it doesn't require new infrastructure per se in the form of an electrified line for the smaller regional routes that it has been specified for here; and fourthly by circumstance, as there has been a lot more opportunity to work on enchanted/magically augmented versions of the steam engine over the ~160 years of its use on British railways
- The Russian Orthodox Church is a power that the CPSU has chosen to accomodate rather than liquidate, with the rather nasty experiences of the WW2 Eastern Front being a lasting lesson for many in the Soviet leadership bloc; the priests are handy to keep around and in doing so, the Soviet government keeps control of them. A complex and troubled relationship
- The B-47 sticks around for a while longer; on the flip side, we are likely to see the B-52 go earlier
- New South Pacific Islands are a consequence of some supernatural things, including the powers unleashed in WW2 and strange developments with re-emerging islands. Something is afoot
- Killings in Chile show the deteriorating situation
- The Argie naval exercises represent no threat, given the different scale of power between Argentina and the British Empire
- Black Thunder is an ADC counterpart to Red Flag
- Home Office restrictions on Commonwealth migration comes from a different position than @. There have already been some 'brakes' put on Commonwealth migration from certain areas to Britain in the form of some legislative measures, but chiefly through a lack of postwar labour shortages in Britain and much better economic conditions in the West Indies and India. Here, the growing 'worry' is that there are a lot of Southern Europeans coming in more rapidly than others, in a bit of a hearkening back to the 1890s concerns over Eastern European and Jewish migration
- Surviving nonuplets is an indication of better health care outcomes
- The Angel Report indicates not all that is mystical is bad
- Icelandic political reactions won’t be allowed to imperil it’s important role
- The USAF test pilot in Wyoming is a reference to Top Gun Maverick
- The Irish musician in Gib is a reference to Chris DeBurgh
- Soviet satellite accidents seem to have a malign cause
- Egypt has never had its coup and reflexive movement into the embrace of Moscow...well, apart from the few brief days in the 1956 'Six Day War' which bought the world to the brink of nuclear conflict and resulted in five years of very hard military occupation. The Soviets haven't had a lot of luck in penetrating the 'Third World', as the markets there were quite tightly shut until gradual independence and even afterwards, leaning Red wasn't seen as a good career move. We then need to factor in the reputation of Soviet tanks and aircraft, which took a battering in Korea and another somewhat lesser beating in Vietnam. I've been trying to think of a way whereby the Arabs and Egypt buy Soviet, but can't seem to figure one; their only success in the area was earlier in 1971 with the sale of Badgers to Ottoman Turkey
- The Beatles using the RN’s Yellow Submarine to rescue a whale. They have a role of something of an adventuring/do-good group like The Goodies, but will tend gradually towards some more musical elements in the process, as well as getting their own television and film series to boot
- With the Red Army across the Danube in Romania, it has a sterling impact in focusing both Bulgaria and Greece on the real threat, even if there is a bit of ancestral uneasiness in this latest embrace
April
- The washing of lions at the Tower Menagerie was one of the first recorded April Fool’s jokes
- Bob Hawke gets in as Australian Labour Party (note the spelling) leader much earlier in the absence of a certain other figure. Having him as a teetotaller is a little fun Easter Egg
- Conquistador is a completely fictional film, with the big stars joined by Emilio Delgado (Luis from Sesame Street in @). On Earth, the epoch of the classic Hollywood historical epic was fading in preference to the 1970s New Hollywood dross, which was far more inward looking. The historical epic, like its cousin the sword and sandal picture, really died out from the mid 1970s onwards (with the epic mini series having an Indian summer through the 1980s) and only really reemerged with Gladiator in 2000. Here, it is still in its pomp for some time to come, rather than the @ diet of mafiosi, oh so daring swearing, titilating nudity and the grim sense of post Watergate and Vietnam loss of innocence
- After a lot of (Defence and anti-Continental related) footdragging, a Channel Tunnel begins construction. It is a different one, with the ability to disable it from the surface
- Frances Phipps makes her historical flight to the North Pole, but it is quite the significant place…
- Plans for Irish defence are not driven by an overt internal or external threat, but rather a much more robust emphasis on defence by the British establishment. Ireland is the back door into the rest of the British Isles in their view. The whole business of Home Defence is treated more seriously, as the @ policy of "We're going to be atomised, so no use spending or trying anything" (very much simplified) is not in place. There are very serious experts looking very seriously towards the post-nuclear age of modern warfare, something that we have never had
- The Brazilian Vespa is similar to the Helwan HA-300 of @ in role and purpose
- The asteroid interception was a bit heavy duty. There have been @ studies were 330ft asteroids were completely destroyed by single 1 megaton warheads. This one was 600ft long but was hit by 16 missiles with 5 megaton warheads. Rather overkill, but it is early days in working out the kinks from the system
- Sir Denzil Carey is positioning himself for the fourth TV channel in 1974; something else will debut in 1972 to join the BBC and ITV (Imperial Television network). He is in a similar niche to Murdoch in @, but is as different as chalk and cheese. The general shape as I see it playing out is Channel 1 (BBC), Channel 2 (ITV), Channel 3 (One of the @ ITV Big 4/5), Channel 4 (Carey’s channel), Channel 5 (another developed a la Channel 3) and Channel 6 (something different…)
- 1914 wins Best Picture and George C. Scott wins for Patton; the latter is described as a hero of WW2 and Korea
- The ARPANET meeting of supercomputer AIs is fairly staid, limited to chess, japes and sports scores; think Holly in Red Dwarf
- McDonalds not only goes for an earlier breakfast menu, but has parallels to the McChicken and McRib quite a bit before @. The little added bit about their burgers being cooked medium rare provides a little bit of dissonance compared to their tasteless @ burgers
- Sierra Leone is moving at a slow pace towards Dominion status, which here doesn’t mean full independence, but rather something akin to Francafrique with teeth and plenty of strings attached. The matter has been debated for a number of years and comes up in A New Jerusalem when discussed by the Queen and Barton. Any complete independence like in @ (which often lead to many coups, Soviet influence or outright bases and general washing of hands) isn’t on the cards. Rather, the recently independent African Dominions (Uganda, Tanganyika, Nigeria, Ashante Federation, Cameroon and Sudan) are encouraged to take part in regional arrangements; get their lavish aid packages with plenty of conditions; have their militaries largely officered by seconded British officers; have quite powerful and influential Governors-General; can call upon British troops for aid and know that they will come; and have very clear red lines on what can’t be done, which usually only extends to no going Red, no alterations to constitutional arrangements without legitimate referendums, no costing up to the other blocs, no dictatorial carry on and no anti-Western/anti-British violence. This is combined with a Francafrique type approach which sees the Paras used in a similar role to the French Foreign Legion. It absolutely isn’t true independence, but is rather independence with trainer wheels on, which is inherently unfair. There is a fair bit of scope to move within that, though, and there is flexibility for arrangements like Senegambia
- The injured Vietnam veterans featured on NPR are William 'One Eye' Clinton, Bruce Springsteen, Donald Trump and Lt. Dan from Forrest Gump
- Ray guns/lasers are starting to make an appearance
- Judicial corporal punishment remains very much on the books in British law, even as it isn’t used quite as much as in previous decades
- Bruce Lee foils a robbery aided by Hong Kong Phooey and Paul Kersey from Death Wish
- The British census has a great deal of information about the different status of the country as compared to @
- The SR-71 flight over Laos saw nothing strange at all. These nice men in black were very persuasive
- A sixth airport for London
- The Anglo-Indian lutenist is Peter Sarstedt
- French Musketeers and Italian Legionaries are two groups very devoted to their images
May
- Oh my gosh, I enriched Kenny’s dad! And, most likely, ensured that he never dabbles in the Cult of Cthulhu; I may find some less nasty means of giving Kenny superpowers, as he is one of the best/nicest/good South Park characters along with Butters. Additionally, Cartman has a recognisable and quite normal father, which could influence his character development
- The Towering Inferno is resolved without deaths thanks to Steve McQueen, a fairly super man and a ‘spider man’
- The Torquay hotelier, call him ‘Basil’ was somewhat justified in his actions, according to him, as the Spanish waiter “knew nothing”
- Mary Rose comes up sooner and in one whole piece. Magic
- Empire Windrush is known not for any role in West Indian migration, but as a footnote to history involved in the Korean War and nuclear tests
- The Chilean mining is simmering towards a climax, with slightly different drivers present affecting the scope for nationalisation
- German/Austrian moves edging towards The Bomb are longer term in the former case, as well as being separate to provide some degree of plausible deniability
- The death of Cassius Clay is a tragic event, as I telegraphed a not too good end to the fight with him being knocked out of the very ring; boxing is an inherently dangerous sport. Clay has a reputation as a great boxer without quite making the jump to being a pop culture figure
- Discoveries in Gobekli Tepe point towards antediluvian civilisation, with the statue of a Golden Condor being something some might recognise…
- SLAM going off course rather dramatically on its first test flight is based on the Snark ending up in NE Brazil; the tractor beam facility indicates some very advanced technology
- Krav Maga Jewish warrior monks are a sign of some very different developments in medieval Judaism, as well as the classical era ones arising from the Sicarii and Maccabees
- The Paras get a bit of action in Sudan in just the type of manner described in April. The light 25pdrs are new weapons rather than retreads
- Affairs at the KAMAZ plant in the USSR show the CIA up to mischief to encourage Soviet paranoia
- The Solsbury Hill sequence is of course a reference to the Peter Gabriel song
- The tankero hunters Aimo’s Strange Journey are a bit of a twin yolked Finnish Easter Egg, which is a collection of words quite rarely used before. I do recommend looking up Aimo Koivunen for the sheer interest of his story
- French nuclear power begins to move down similar lines to @, albeit without the same immediate driver of the oil shock
- Stewart v Clark in the Grand Prix is a further example of the relative British dominance of Formula One
- The Soviet Tu-154 flight to NYC attracts a lot of attention for any tidbits that can be discovered or observed
- West Indian cricket is about to enter its real pomp with the debut of Viv Richards and Greenidge later in the year, allowing them to play alongside Sobers as well as the rest of their collection of stars; a further factor to be considered is the addition of Cuba as part of the WI, with many of its baseball players being available. South Africa is also not exiled from Test cricket and they have a very, very strong team at this point
- British shipbuilding tonnage spikes this year due to the completion of the big supertankers, along with oil rigs and the generally increasing size of all kinds of merchant ships. Japan and then South Korea were able to streak away from the West and the Rest with the combination of the size of ships and the death of competing industries, but there is a different paradigm here
- Orinoco Flow is a reference to the eponymous Enya song
- The English Electric Broadsword is intended to replace the Thunderbird and a large number of Bloodhounds and has a very hot performance and range comparable to the Patriot and SA-10; it has an anti-aircraft and anti-missile capacity
- Red Sun is a slightly different picture on account of Audie Murphy still being around
- The Liberty Line/DMZ is turning into the type of heavily fortified position that the comparison to the Maginot Line is not entirely hyperbole. It is in the interests of both Vietnams to have an airtight border
June
- The BR Class A25 Advanced High Speed Train is not our grandfather's steam engine, but a fully modernised one that as said can easily do the required 200mph; the larger ones go at 375mph. They are arcanely boosted with a few other developments, but the trains themselves are based on a combination of locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/ACE_3000 , en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5AT_Advanced_Technology_Steam_Locomotive and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A4_4468_Mallard . The locomotives in general are much bigger than the ones of @, reflecting the larger loading gauge and broad gauge standard; Brunel won out early on in the Age of Rail rather than being an anomaly. Steam was chosen for a number of reasons. First of all, there is sheer inertia as it has been the dominant locomotive source of power in Britain to this point, with diesel not really making a significant inroad and electrification mainly confined to the south; secondly, it makes broad socio-economic sense in that it employs British coal that is still dug up by a politically important industry, particularly with its sharp decline for power generation use due to the rise of nuclear power; thirdly, it doesn't require new infrastructure per se in the form of an electrified line for the smaller regional routes that it has been specified for here; and fourthly by circumstance, as there has been a lot more opportunity to work on enchanted/magically augmented versions of the steam engine over the ~160 years of its use on British railways
- The Russian Orthodox Church is a power that the CPSU has chosen to accomodate rather than liquidate, with the rather nasty experiences of the WW2 Eastern Front being a lasting lesson for many in the Soviet leadership bloc; the priests are handy to keep around and in doing so, the Soviet government keeps control of them. A complex and troubled relationship
- The B-47 sticks around for a while longer; on the flip side, we are likely to see the B-52 go earlier
- New South Pacific Islands are a consequence of some supernatural things, including the powers unleashed in WW2 and strange developments with re-emerging islands. Something is afoot
- Killings in Chile show the deteriorating situation
- The Argie naval exercises represent no threat, given the different scale of power between Argentina and the British Empire
- Black Thunder is an ADC counterpart to Red Flag
- Home Office restrictions on Commonwealth migration comes from a different position than @. There have already been some 'brakes' put on Commonwealth migration from certain areas to Britain in the form of some legislative measures, but chiefly through a lack of postwar labour shortages in Britain and much better economic conditions in the West Indies and India. Here, the growing 'worry' is that there are a lot of Southern Europeans coming in more rapidly than others, in a bit of a hearkening back to the 1890s concerns over Eastern European and Jewish migration
- Surviving nonuplets is an indication of better health care outcomes
- The Angel Report indicates not all that is mystical is bad
- Icelandic political reactions won’t be allowed to imperil it’s important role
- The USAF test pilot in Wyoming is a reference to Top Gun Maverick
- The Irish musician in Gib is a reference to Chris DeBurgh
- Soviet satellite accidents seem to have a malign cause
- Egypt has never had its coup and reflexive movement into the embrace of Moscow...well, apart from the few brief days in the 1956 'Six Day War' which bought the world to the brink of nuclear conflict and resulted in five years of very hard military occupation. The Soviets haven't had a lot of luck in penetrating the 'Third World', as the markets there were quite tightly shut until gradual independence and even afterwards, leaning Red wasn't seen as a good career move. We then need to factor in the reputation of Soviet tanks and aircraft, which took a battering in Korea and another somewhat lesser beating in Vietnam. I've been trying to think of a way whereby the Arabs and Egypt buy Soviet, but can't seem to figure one; their only success in the area was earlier in 1971 with the sale of Badgers to Ottoman Turkey
- The Beatles using the RN’s Yellow Submarine to rescue a whale. They have a role of something of an adventuring/do-good group like The Goodies, but will tend gradually towards some more musical elements in the process, as well as getting their own television and film series to boot
- With the Red Army across the Danube in Romania, it has a sterling impact in focusing both Bulgaria and Greece on the real threat, even if there is a bit of ancestral uneasiness in this latest embrace
- jemhouston
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
I always liked the B-47. By leaving earlier, does that mean the B-52 only lasts 75 years not 100? 
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Belushi TD
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
A possible way to get Soviet equipment to the middle east might be to literally GIVE a starter batch of something to someone who is poor but looking to tool up. Then help them exploit natural resources to be paid for with additional military equipment.
Not sure it would work for all countries but it might be useful for a few of them.
There's also the "We came to put down an insurrection and left our stuff" method, but I don't think the Soviets have a lot of transport available for that sort of behavior.
Belushi TD
Not sure it would work for all countries but it might be useful for a few of them.
There's also the "We came to put down an insurrection and left our stuff" method, but I don't think the Soviets have a lot of transport available for that sort of behavior.
Belushi TD
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
No, I mean being replaced in the 1980s. The longevity of the B-52 is not an eternal factor in every situation, particularly where there is the money and will to replace them.jemhouston wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:50 pm I always liked the B-47. By leaving earlier, does that mean the B-52 only lasts 75 years not 100?![]()
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Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Belushi,Belushi TD wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:37 pm A possible way to get Soviet equipment to the middle east might be to literally GIVE a starter batch of something to someone who is poor but looking to tool up. Then help them exploit natural resources to be paid for with additional military equipment.
Not sure it would work for all countries but it might be useful for a few of them.
There's also the "We came to put down an insurrection and left our stuff" method, but I don't think the Soviets have a lot of transport available for that sort of behavior.
Belushi TD
The question would be who. The options are Israel; the Arab Union of Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Arabia; and the Kingdom of North Yemen. All other states are British protectorates or colonies.
The Arab Union is made up of Hashemite monarchies who enjoy their increasing independence and not being occupied by British or American troops; Iraq, Arabia, Syria and Jordan all have British bases and advisors. They aren’t particularly poor due to their share of oil revenues.
The bigger question is Why. The Western equipment has a very high reputation, whereas Soviet equipment has not won. Even accounting for cultural differences, it does not seem a great deal.
Simon
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
A further extension of that question might be why the Middle East would need to be heavily armed at all, if there's no active Arab-Israeli conflict and the whole region is effectively under British/American dominion. Would you be able to give a quick summary of the post-WW2 Middle Eastern history?Simon Darkshade wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:00 pmBelushi,
The question would be who. The options are Israel; the Arab Union of Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Arabia; and the Kingdom of North Yemen. All other states are British protectorates or colonies.
The Arab Union is made up of Hashemite monarchies who enjoy their increasing independence and not being occupied by British or American troops; Iraq, Arabia, Syria and Jordan all have British bases and advisors. They aren’t particularly poor due to their share of oil revenues.
The bigger question is Why. The Western equipment has a very high reputation, whereas Soviet equipment has not won. Even accounting for cultural differences, it does not seem a great deal.
Simon
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Simon Darkshade
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- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
A.) Reasons for armament:
1.) The Soviets/The Great Game
2.) Regional tensions with the Turks and Persians
3.) Nationalist desires to have all the trappings of a de jure independent state
4.) British, American and French arms manufacturers, among others, wanting markets
B.) It isn't quite under British dominion, certainly in comparison to pre WW2. The Americans have been trying to elbow in, but haven't quite had the opening or the opportunity to assert their power, so that the area is definitely in the British sphere of influence.
C.) Post WW2 in the Middle East
The Arab kingdoms of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Arabia and Yemen began the process of discussing stronger ties of defence, commerce and political cooperation in early 1946 at a conference in Damascus. The question of a regional confederation was too difficult to contemplate in the immediate future, given the rivalries between Arabia, Iraq and Egypt over leaderships of such a league and the broader questions of relations with Ottoman Turkey and Qajar Persia, but the seeds of a unifying Pan-Arab identity were sown. Britain, cognisant of the strategic importance of the Middle East, encouraged the development of regional security arrangements and cooperation as a means of shoring up her own position in the area. These seeds would grow to a bitter harvest within a decade.
The two other superpowers were also beginning to pay greater attention to the affairs of the Middle East and its future in 1946 and 1947. The Soviet Union looked southward longingly, always keeping the old Russian dream of a warm water port close to its heart. The Arab monarchies were seen as backwards and ripe prey for destabilization over the course of time. A friendly southern flank would remove the threat of British and American airbases in Egypt, Israel and Arabia that allowed the strategic bombers of the USAF and RAF to potentially reach deep into the Urals and beyond. The highly publicised flying tour of four new Vickers Valiant jet bombers through the Middle East and Persia in October 1947 increased Soviet suspicions further and the attentions of the Comintern and NKVD shifted from the Balkans and the Straits to the bazaars and souks of Damascus, Baghdad and Cairo. The United States was also eager to extend its influence in the area and to break the monopoly of British oil companies on its rich pickings. USAF B-29s and B-36s had been rotated through RAF airbases since the end of the war, but no permanent arrangements had been able to be made. The close links between the established Arab aristocracy and Britain made it difficult for the US to exert direct political influence, but its economic power was succeeding in beginning to break down the barriers built up since the Great War. Relations with Israel began to grow, stimulating particularly by the large Jewish diaspora in the United States.
However, as the year drew to a close, the British Empire remained the effective regional hegemon of the Middle East, acting as the guarantor of its security, an honest broker for the resolution of differences between the states and the major external trading partner of the area. The aircraft of the RAF, now with many jets among their number, continued to patrol its skies and troops from Britain and India stood watch on its uneasy borders side by side with the Arab Legion. December 1947 saw the beginnings of discussions in Arabia, Persia and Egypt regarding the revision of previous petroleum royalty agreements in an effort to maintain the privileged position of British Petroleum, Shell and Anglo-Saxon Petroleum. Behind the scenes of the royal courts and palaces, the myriad agents MI6 and SOE worked tirelessly to ensure that the factions most friendly to Britain remained in prime position of influence through gold, sorcery and rumour. Relations between Israel and the Arab states continued to cool as the war years drifted further back into memory and London had to dance a delicate quadrille between its obligations and interests. Where once Britain had stood alone, now there was a complex and intricate web of intrigue with several other powers. The Middle East was beginning to take a new shape and only time would tell what it would be.
(From 'Crossroad of Civilisations: The Middle East’, S. Baldrick, Oxford University Press, 1975)
The Middle Eastern states of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Arabia, Transjordan and Yemen formed the Arab League in 1949 and took several steps towards greater independence. Several of them deployed contingents to the Korean War, which quite coincidentally included some of the more politically ambitious younger officers. In May 1950, there was a Tripartite Agreement negotiated between Britain, France and the United States not to sell arms to Middle Eastern states without prior consultation.
Egypt saw increasing rumblings that were suppressed by British pressure and troops deployments, whilst a Syrian coup attempt was put down by loyalists. In late 1951/early 1952, the King of Egypt launched a more concerted crackdown on rebellious elements in the Army, with dozens of Egyptian army officers and politicians arrested on charges of treason after British intelligence agents uncover a plot to overthrow King Farouk, followed by their executions and imposition of martial law. Also in 1951, Iraq and Britain signed a 25 year extension of the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty, causing some public disquiet. Meanwhile, a religious fanatic attempted to destroy the Great Pyramids of Giza with a rock hammer and fell to his death.
In 1954, Britain and Egypt signed a new Anglo-Egyptian Treaty, allowing the presence of British military bases for the defence of the Suez Canal for the next 25 years.1955 saw the signing of the Baghdad Pact, a regional mutual security agreement by Britain, France, the United States, India, Iraq, Persia, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Arabia and Egypt. The non-participation of Israel attracted considerable criticism from British and American politicians and newspapers.
In 1956, the stuff hits the fan. A major war precipitated by an Egyptian coup, resulting in a full British invasion of Egypt, Iraq and Syria to restore their regimes and subsequent occupation that only really lifts in 1960. The Arab armed forces, already equipped with aging WW2 surplus, are limited to gear a generation behind British Empire forces for good measure. Egyptian politics largely turns away from Arabist policies in favour of a more African/Egyptian focus; the impaled bodies of the coup leaders remain in Ismailia Square for years.
The result of this is to really put a shuddering halt to the type of Pan Arabism tinged with Soviet dalliance and nationalist socialism seen in @, replaced by a more circumspect consideration of “How can we achieve our goal of independence, unity and full freedom?” As this develops, there is an adroit bit of influence/soft power going on, in the form of transformative weather and fertility enchantments over parts of Iraq, Syria and Jordan showing results after a decade.
In 1958, American, British and French troops intervene in Lebanon and Jordan to support their governments on their request. However, the real seeds of the next stage comes in November 1960, with an Arab military conference in Alexandria resulting in British guarantees of the supply of defence aid, modern weapons and aircraft for the Arab armies under the framework of the Baghdad Pact. This was followed in May 1962 when Prime Ministers of Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen and Lebanon signed a memorandum of understanding in Baghdad regarding an Arab Union. In June 1962, British and U.S. forces intervened in Persia after the Shah invoked the Baghdad Pact and sought help to suppress a Tudeh uprising.
In mid 1963, representatives of Arabia, Syria, Iraq and Jordan signed a memorandum of understanding on the establishment of a federal Arab Union, followed by the Military Charter of the Arab Union, combining their military forces under the command a single High Military Council based in Baghdad. It culminated in June 1964 with the declaration of the establishment of the Arab Union of Arabia, Iraq, Syria and Jordan as a confederal state with a common currency, ministries and defence force, with the Sultan of Arabia heading the council of kings. Lebanon and Yemen were given observer rights with capacity to join at a later date.
At the beginning of 1967, we had this:
https://alternate-timelines.proboards.c ... -castellan
1956 War Details
1.) The Soviets/The Great Game
2.) Regional tensions with the Turks and Persians
3.) Nationalist desires to have all the trappings of a de jure independent state
4.) British, American and French arms manufacturers, among others, wanting markets
B.) It isn't quite under British dominion, certainly in comparison to pre WW2. The Americans have been trying to elbow in, but haven't quite had the opening or the opportunity to assert their power, so that the area is definitely in the British sphere of influence.
C.) Post WW2 in the Middle East
The Arab kingdoms of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Arabia and Yemen began the process of discussing stronger ties of defence, commerce and political cooperation in early 1946 at a conference in Damascus. The question of a regional confederation was too difficult to contemplate in the immediate future, given the rivalries between Arabia, Iraq and Egypt over leaderships of such a league and the broader questions of relations with Ottoman Turkey and Qajar Persia, but the seeds of a unifying Pan-Arab identity were sown. Britain, cognisant of the strategic importance of the Middle East, encouraged the development of regional security arrangements and cooperation as a means of shoring up her own position in the area. These seeds would grow to a bitter harvest within a decade.
The two other superpowers were also beginning to pay greater attention to the affairs of the Middle East and its future in 1946 and 1947. The Soviet Union looked southward longingly, always keeping the old Russian dream of a warm water port close to its heart. The Arab monarchies were seen as backwards and ripe prey for destabilization over the course of time. A friendly southern flank would remove the threat of British and American airbases in Egypt, Israel and Arabia that allowed the strategic bombers of the USAF and RAF to potentially reach deep into the Urals and beyond. The highly publicised flying tour of four new Vickers Valiant jet bombers through the Middle East and Persia in October 1947 increased Soviet suspicions further and the attentions of the Comintern and NKVD shifted from the Balkans and the Straits to the bazaars and souks of Damascus, Baghdad and Cairo. The United States was also eager to extend its influence in the area and to break the monopoly of British oil companies on its rich pickings. USAF B-29s and B-36s had been rotated through RAF airbases since the end of the war, but no permanent arrangements had been able to be made. The close links between the established Arab aristocracy and Britain made it difficult for the US to exert direct political influence, but its economic power was succeeding in beginning to break down the barriers built up since the Great War. Relations with Israel began to grow, stimulating particularly by the large Jewish diaspora in the United States.
However, as the year drew to a close, the British Empire remained the effective regional hegemon of the Middle East, acting as the guarantor of its security, an honest broker for the resolution of differences between the states and the major external trading partner of the area. The aircraft of the RAF, now with many jets among their number, continued to patrol its skies and troops from Britain and India stood watch on its uneasy borders side by side with the Arab Legion. December 1947 saw the beginnings of discussions in Arabia, Persia and Egypt regarding the revision of previous petroleum royalty agreements in an effort to maintain the privileged position of British Petroleum, Shell and Anglo-Saxon Petroleum. Behind the scenes of the royal courts and palaces, the myriad agents MI6 and SOE worked tirelessly to ensure that the factions most friendly to Britain remained in prime position of influence through gold, sorcery and rumour. Relations between Israel and the Arab states continued to cool as the war years drifted further back into memory and London had to dance a delicate quadrille between its obligations and interests. Where once Britain had stood alone, now there was a complex and intricate web of intrigue with several other powers. The Middle East was beginning to take a new shape and only time would tell what it would be.
(From 'Crossroad of Civilisations: The Middle East’, S. Baldrick, Oxford University Press, 1975)
The Middle Eastern states of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Arabia, Transjordan and Yemen formed the Arab League in 1949 and took several steps towards greater independence. Several of them deployed contingents to the Korean War, which quite coincidentally included some of the more politically ambitious younger officers. In May 1950, there was a Tripartite Agreement negotiated between Britain, France and the United States not to sell arms to Middle Eastern states without prior consultation.
Egypt saw increasing rumblings that were suppressed by British pressure and troops deployments, whilst a Syrian coup attempt was put down by loyalists. In late 1951/early 1952, the King of Egypt launched a more concerted crackdown on rebellious elements in the Army, with dozens of Egyptian army officers and politicians arrested on charges of treason after British intelligence agents uncover a plot to overthrow King Farouk, followed by their executions and imposition of martial law. Also in 1951, Iraq and Britain signed a 25 year extension of the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty, causing some public disquiet. Meanwhile, a religious fanatic attempted to destroy the Great Pyramids of Giza with a rock hammer and fell to his death.
In 1954, Britain and Egypt signed a new Anglo-Egyptian Treaty, allowing the presence of British military bases for the defence of the Suez Canal for the next 25 years.1955 saw the signing of the Baghdad Pact, a regional mutual security agreement by Britain, France, the United States, India, Iraq, Persia, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Arabia and Egypt. The non-participation of Israel attracted considerable criticism from British and American politicians and newspapers.
In 1956, the stuff hits the fan. A major war precipitated by an Egyptian coup, resulting in a full British invasion of Egypt, Iraq and Syria to restore their regimes and subsequent occupation that only really lifts in 1960. The Arab armed forces, already equipped with aging WW2 surplus, are limited to gear a generation behind British Empire forces for good measure. Egyptian politics largely turns away from Arabist policies in favour of a more African/Egyptian focus; the impaled bodies of the coup leaders remain in Ismailia Square for years.
The result of this is to really put a shuddering halt to the type of Pan Arabism tinged with Soviet dalliance and nationalist socialism seen in @, replaced by a more circumspect consideration of “How can we achieve our goal of independence, unity and full freedom?” As this develops, there is an adroit bit of influence/soft power going on, in the form of transformative weather and fertility enchantments over parts of Iraq, Syria and Jordan showing results after a decade.
In 1958, American, British and French troops intervene in Lebanon and Jordan to support their governments on their request. However, the real seeds of the next stage comes in November 1960, with an Arab military conference in Alexandria resulting in British guarantees of the supply of defence aid, modern weapons and aircraft for the Arab armies under the framework of the Baghdad Pact. This was followed in May 1962 when Prime Ministers of Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Yemen and Lebanon signed a memorandum of understanding in Baghdad regarding an Arab Union. In June 1962, British and U.S. forces intervened in Persia after the Shah invoked the Baghdad Pact and sought help to suppress a Tudeh uprising.
In mid 1963, representatives of Arabia, Syria, Iraq and Jordan signed a memorandum of understanding on the establishment of a federal Arab Union, followed by the Military Charter of the Arab Union, combining their military forces under the command a single High Military Council based in Baghdad. It culminated in June 1964 with the declaration of the establishment of the Arab Union of Arabia, Iraq, Syria and Jordan as a confederal state with a common currency, ministries and defence force, with the Sultan of Arabia heading the council of kings. Lebanon and Yemen were given observer rights with capacity to join at a later date.
At the beginning of 1967, we had this:
https://alternate-timelines.proboards.c ... -castellan
1956 War Details
Spoiler!
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Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
1971 Notes Part 3
July
- The quote about patrolling the Mojave is taken directly from the superb game Fallout New Vegas
- The supercomputer simulation of the Battle of Isandlwhana is more a case of trying out its capabilities on a known outcome with alterable parameters. The inclusion of modern weapons and close air support for the 1870s is a bit silly on the surface, but represents the combination of a visual simulation (a la some of the Total War videos on the Internets) with equipment that can be assigned realistic numerical values (based on some of the Soviet material that can be found online that assigned different NATO and WP equipment a numerical value). The result is quite a powerful simulation tool that is a fair bit in advance of what was available in @. It will get a further workout in 1972, when it will be used for an earlier iteration of the 1974 Operation Sealion war game at Sandhurst
- New US aircraft displayed at the Independence Day air show show some different developments to @; the FB-111 is a larger plane equivalent to the proposed FB-111H
- The British Commonwealth South Atlantic Fleet is one of several Fleet Units that in and of themselves are superior to next to every regional navy around the world, such as the nominally formidable Royal Argentine Navy
- The Nile crocodile is Gustave
- 22 Acacia Avenue is an Iron Maiden reference, with Bananaman coming along for good measure
- The Wonka chocolate bar's ingredients are quite informative, with D-IX containing 5mg cocaine, 5mg oxycodone and 3mg Pervitin. Combined with the ketamine, it is supposed to be the closest thing to a healing potion + super soldier pill, but with some potential drawbacks that may be obvious to readers...
- The Pan-Arab Liberation Organisation has goals that are historically familiar
- RMS Titanic II is quite the powerful and impressive superliner with an eventful career ahead
- Southampton Cathedral is competed by its dwarven master builders
- Soviet semi-atmospheric testing is leading up to some future developments
- Whatever hit the SR-71 over Laos is keeping quite mum
- In their defence, the Flying Squad members who indulge in egregious Cockney rhyming slang hadn't had any dinner
- The Ocean class commando carriers are much larger than the earlier converted aircraft carriers, with additional armament and accomodation for more troops
- The escaped reptiles will be heard from again, what with their deathly claws and all that
August
- The increased incidence of home fallout shelters is considerably above the historical level of 1.4% in 1962, thanks to a decade of growth and promotion by Vault-Tech
- Restoration of the King of Ecuador is hinted at being supported by foreign mercenaries from a tea drinking country
- Bristol becomes BAC, which carries on alongside many of its @ components in the other major aircraft groups
- Leonard Nimoy becomes the host of In Search Of earlier, with the amusing kicker that it is a cover for a secret investigative group
- On August 9, young Theodore Bundy picks up a rather interesting hitchhiker who turns out to be a vampiress. His night ends up very, very differently from his plan...
- Joe Friday and Dirty Harry catch the confounded Tambourine Man before he can corrupt any more youngsters!
- The archaeologists in Spain discover a tomb where the reference to the Riddle of Steel is mistakenly translated
- August 15 is a direct reference to the great Marty Robbins song
- Bahrain has a different ethnic make up, arising from earlier migration patterns attracted by oil
- Little John Smith is a quite formidable boxer to counter
- The Oregon killer whale - let's call him Willy - is freed by the actions of the nice young boy. His dog, Boomer, is from the television show Here's Boomer and Ted the professor is Theodore Kaczynski
- There seems to have been evidence of something that looked like an atmospheric nuclear test over the USSR
- August 26 refers to the Iron Maiden song Dance of Death
- The leader of the Eskimo Rangers is the Mighty Quin; his dogs are Buck (The Call of the Wild) and White Fang
- Britain continues to have all manner of coins, not going down the path of decimalisation
- The Road to Miklagard is a lesser known British children's historical novel of the 1950s/60s, but has quite the story. Indeed, all of Henry Treece's works have a decent plot
September
- The various ship commissionings represent quite the increase in the Andrew’s strength and capacity. Consider also where the DLGs are built
- Chinese mushrooms will cause no trouble whatsoever
- MELF is contracting as forward deployments are replaced by flying in troops
- Electric shock guns are one thing, but prisoners really have no answer to an angry giant short faced bear. They are big buggers
- Tesla might even start up a company with his name…
- The Baker Street robbery is foiled through a combination of police believing reports and divination narrowing down the possible locations. Assault rifles and police lions take the fight out of unarmed robbers
- Development of outfield protection spells cuts the loss of play in cricket matches to rain. How else might this be employed?
- Pyramids in the Indus Valley points towards certain connections
- The events at the O.K. Launderette are from the pilot episode of Minder
- Hawaii 5-0 and Kolchak the Night Stalker combine to raid the Love Boat and capture the dastardly Captain and Tennille!
- Denmark starts to get more attention and aid as the Soviets and WP increase their capabilities
- The mystery of the dead bodies in SF is perplexing. It is as if they left their hearts in San Francisco
- Arnold Schwarzenegger having a flawless accent is …interesting…
- The Internal Security Act of 1950 remains on the books
July
- The quote about patrolling the Mojave is taken directly from the superb game Fallout New Vegas
- The supercomputer simulation of the Battle of Isandlwhana is more a case of trying out its capabilities on a known outcome with alterable parameters. The inclusion of modern weapons and close air support for the 1870s is a bit silly on the surface, but represents the combination of a visual simulation (a la some of the Total War videos on the Internets) with equipment that can be assigned realistic numerical values (based on some of the Soviet material that can be found online that assigned different NATO and WP equipment a numerical value). The result is quite a powerful simulation tool that is a fair bit in advance of what was available in @. It will get a further workout in 1972, when it will be used for an earlier iteration of the 1974 Operation Sealion war game at Sandhurst
- New US aircraft displayed at the Independence Day air show show some different developments to @; the FB-111 is a larger plane equivalent to the proposed FB-111H
- The British Commonwealth South Atlantic Fleet is one of several Fleet Units that in and of themselves are superior to next to every regional navy around the world, such as the nominally formidable Royal Argentine Navy
- The Nile crocodile is Gustave
- 22 Acacia Avenue is an Iron Maiden reference, with Bananaman coming along for good measure
- The Wonka chocolate bar's ingredients are quite informative, with D-IX containing 5mg cocaine, 5mg oxycodone and 3mg Pervitin. Combined with the ketamine, it is supposed to be the closest thing to a healing potion + super soldier pill, but with some potential drawbacks that may be obvious to readers...
- The Pan-Arab Liberation Organisation has goals that are historically familiar
- RMS Titanic II is quite the powerful and impressive superliner with an eventful career ahead
- Southampton Cathedral is competed by its dwarven master builders
- Soviet semi-atmospheric testing is leading up to some future developments
- Whatever hit the SR-71 over Laos is keeping quite mum
- In their defence, the Flying Squad members who indulge in egregious Cockney rhyming slang hadn't had any dinner
- The Ocean class commando carriers are much larger than the earlier converted aircraft carriers, with additional armament and accomodation for more troops
- The escaped reptiles will be heard from again, what with their deathly claws and all that
August
- The increased incidence of home fallout shelters is considerably above the historical level of 1.4% in 1962, thanks to a decade of growth and promotion by Vault-Tech
- Restoration of the King of Ecuador is hinted at being supported by foreign mercenaries from a tea drinking country
- Bristol becomes BAC, which carries on alongside many of its @ components in the other major aircraft groups
- Leonard Nimoy becomes the host of In Search Of earlier, with the amusing kicker that it is a cover for a secret investigative group
- On August 9, young Theodore Bundy picks up a rather interesting hitchhiker who turns out to be a vampiress. His night ends up very, very differently from his plan...
- Joe Friday and Dirty Harry catch the confounded Tambourine Man before he can corrupt any more youngsters!
- The archaeologists in Spain discover a tomb where the reference to the Riddle of Steel is mistakenly translated
- August 15 is a direct reference to the great Marty Robbins song
- Bahrain has a different ethnic make up, arising from earlier migration patterns attracted by oil
- Little John Smith is a quite formidable boxer to counter
- The Oregon killer whale - let's call him Willy - is freed by the actions of the nice young boy. His dog, Boomer, is from the television show Here's Boomer and Ted the professor is Theodore Kaczynski
- There seems to have been evidence of something that looked like an atmospheric nuclear test over the USSR
- August 26 refers to the Iron Maiden song Dance of Death
- The leader of the Eskimo Rangers is the Mighty Quin; his dogs are Buck (The Call of the Wild) and White Fang
- Britain continues to have all manner of coins, not going down the path of decimalisation
- The Road to Miklagard is a lesser known British children's historical novel of the 1950s/60s, but has quite the story. Indeed, all of Henry Treece's works have a decent plot
September
- The various ship commissionings represent quite the increase in the Andrew’s strength and capacity. Consider also where the DLGs are built
- Chinese mushrooms will cause no trouble whatsoever
- MELF is contracting as forward deployments are replaced by flying in troops
- Electric shock guns are one thing, but prisoners really have no answer to an angry giant short faced bear. They are big buggers
- Tesla might even start up a company with his name…
- The Baker Street robbery is foiled through a combination of police believing reports and divination narrowing down the possible locations. Assault rifles and police lions take the fight out of unarmed robbers
- Development of outfield protection spells cuts the loss of play in cricket matches to rain. How else might this be employed?
- Pyramids in the Indus Valley points towards certain connections
- The events at the O.K. Launderette are from the pilot episode of Minder
- Hawaii 5-0 and Kolchak the Night Stalker combine to raid the Love Boat and capture the dastardly Captain and Tennille!
- Denmark starts to get more attention and aid as the Soviets and WP increase their capabilities
- The mystery of the dead bodies in SF is perplexing. It is as if they left their hearts in San Francisco
- Arnold Schwarzenegger having a flawless accent is …interesting…
- The Internal Security Act of 1950 remains on the books
- jemhouston
- Posts: 5888
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:38 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
Captain and Tennille was arrested for having ear worm music?
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
This may be an odd direction to take things, but I think Israel might be the state most liable to dally with the USSR. Israel’s refusal to participate in the Baghdad Pact is one seed of discord you’ve already sown into the narrative. Historically, there was a strong socialist camp within the Zionist movement, and in your world where there they aren’t constantly fighting wars with Arab nationalist states, where there’s no pervasive sense of existential threat and the ethnic conflict is much more muted and suppressed, the rise of the Israeli right may be forestalled.
Israel has always had strong expansionist tendencies, and I can only imagine those desires being stronger in a world where the conquest of the Palestinians has gone much more smoothly for them. A strong British hegemon maintaining close relationships with the Arab monarchies is the biggest obstacle to any expansion of Israel, and that will naturally fuel resentment.
Israel took part in your Middle East War, invading Egypt and Syria alongside British forces, but while Britain sought to restore friendly regimes to power in these countries, I think the Israelis would have had other motives - they’d have sought territorial gains in the Sinai and the Golan as rewards for their participation. For the sake of maintaining their relationships with the Arabs, the British cannot allow this. Given the balance of power situation, the Israelis would back down when Britain confronts them and insists on the maintenance of the pre-war borders. Backing down is the pragmatic choice, of course, but it would be a very unpopular and humiliating decision. Similarly to Italy after the historical WWI, there may be a widespread feeling of resentment for having been denied their rightful spoils of war.
Imagine then, that this leads to the rise of a far-left populist movement, one that denounces the mainstream parties as stooges of the British, cowards who gave up what could have been held. If only we had been in charge, it would have been the British who gave in and let us have the Golan. Israel is a beacon of progress and modernity; the Arab states are reactionary backwaters, and it is only the self-interested British who stand in the way of Israel spreading progress through the region. Such would be their rhetoric.
British intelligence would obviously be concerned at the rise of such a party - but perhaps it would be too slow to respond pre-emptively, failing to appreciate how quickly this new party would win converts not only from the far left, but from the Israeli right. In a shocking electoral upset, this new party is swept into power, and its loudly outspoken firebrand of a leader is suddenly the prime minister of Israel.
What ensues is a situation somewhere between that of Chavez’s rise to power in Venezuela and Erdogan’s in Turkey in our own history. Israel’s new leader is wily enough to understand that there is no hope of winning an actual war with the British Empire, but with a keen instinct for controversy, he happily steps into the role of antagonist, becoming a ceaseless source of outrageous threats, bluffs, insults, and provocations, while always keeping an eye open for opportunities to insert himself into regional issues and pouncing on each chance to take advantage.
This new leader becomes a major nuisance to the British, but one that has to be handled delicately - Britain cannot do what it did in Egypt because Israel is a nuclear state. But the Israeli leader remains frustratingly popular, and continues to dominate the elections, in spite of British efforts to support his opposition. The Israeli security services prove unwilling or unable to execute a coup against him, having either been won over or purged.
The Soviets recognize the situation as an opportunity to gain their long-desired foothold in the region. Their efforts with the Arabs have been an utter failure. Israel is clearly the strong horse; its a switch they’ll be happy to make. The Israeli leader will always be too much of a loose cannon for their liking, never the pliable puppet they really want, but the opportunities in this relationship for them are immense.
Israel’s relations with Britain and the West in general will plummet as it develops closer ties with the USSR; naturally this will lead to difficulties acquiring arms from anyone but the Soviets. But there’s a major difference here if Israel becomes your Soviet arms client instead of the Arabs, one that could add a lot of drama to your story: the Israelis have their own own well-developed military-industrial complex, and a sophisticated understanding of the Western technologies they have been supplied with. So they are not going to just be buying Soviet gear and stashing it in their stockpile - they will be fitting it out with their own modifications, equipment, and ordnance. And it wouldn’t be a one way relationship either - Israel has samples of advanced Western hardware, which the Soviets would be willing to pay quite a bit to get their hands on. It would have immense implications for your universe if the Soviet Union were able to get access to these technologies through Israel.
That’s the best angle I could come up with. What do you think of it?
Israel has always had strong expansionist tendencies, and I can only imagine those desires being stronger in a world where the conquest of the Palestinians has gone much more smoothly for them. A strong British hegemon maintaining close relationships with the Arab monarchies is the biggest obstacle to any expansion of Israel, and that will naturally fuel resentment.
Israel took part in your Middle East War, invading Egypt and Syria alongside British forces, but while Britain sought to restore friendly regimes to power in these countries, I think the Israelis would have had other motives - they’d have sought territorial gains in the Sinai and the Golan as rewards for their participation. For the sake of maintaining their relationships with the Arabs, the British cannot allow this. Given the balance of power situation, the Israelis would back down when Britain confronts them and insists on the maintenance of the pre-war borders. Backing down is the pragmatic choice, of course, but it would be a very unpopular and humiliating decision. Similarly to Italy after the historical WWI, there may be a widespread feeling of resentment for having been denied their rightful spoils of war.
Imagine then, that this leads to the rise of a far-left populist movement, one that denounces the mainstream parties as stooges of the British, cowards who gave up what could have been held. If only we had been in charge, it would have been the British who gave in and let us have the Golan. Israel is a beacon of progress and modernity; the Arab states are reactionary backwaters, and it is only the self-interested British who stand in the way of Israel spreading progress through the region. Such would be their rhetoric.
British intelligence would obviously be concerned at the rise of such a party - but perhaps it would be too slow to respond pre-emptively, failing to appreciate how quickly this new party would win converts not only from the far left, but from the Israeli right. In a shocking electoral upset, this new party is swept into power, and its loudly outspoken firebrand of a leader is suddenly the prime minister of Israel.
What ensues is a situation somewhere between that of Chavez’s rise to power in Venezuela and Erdogan’s in Turkey in our own history. Israel’s new leader is wily enough to understand that there is no hope of winning an actual war with the British Empire, but with a keen instinct for controversy, he happily steps into the role of antagonist, becoming a ceaseless source of outrageous threats, bluffs, insults, and provocations, while always keeping an eye open for opportunities to insert himself into regional issues and pouncing on each chance to take advantage.
This new leader becomes a major nuisance to the British, but one that has to be handled delicately - Britain cannot do what it did in Egypt because Israel is a nuclear state. But the Israeli leader remains frustratingly popular, and continues to dominate the elections, in spite of British efforts to support his opposition. The Israeli security services prove unwilling or unable to execute a coup against him, having either been won over or purged.
The Soviets recognize the situation as an opportunity to gain their long-desired foothold in the region. Their efforts with the Arabs have been an utter failure. Israel is clearly the strong horse; its a switch they’ll be happy to make. The Israeli leader will always be too much of a loose cannon for their liking, never the pliable puppet they really want, but the opportunities in this relationship for them are immense.
Israel’s relations with Britain and the West in general will plummet as it develops closer ties with the USSR; naturally this will lead to difficulties acquiring arms from anyone but the Soviets. But there’s a major difference here if Israel becomes your Soviet arms client instead of the Arabs, one that could add a lot of drama to your story: the Israelis have their own own well-developed military-industrial complex, and a sophisticated understanding of the Western technologies they have been supplied with. So they are not going to just be buying Soviet gear and stashing it in their stockpile - they will be fitting it out with their own modifications, equipment, and ordnance. And it wouldn’t be a one way relationship either - Israel has samples of advanced Western hardware, which the Soviets would be willing to pay quite a bit to get their hands on. It would have immense implications for your universe if the Soviet Union were able to get access to these technologies through Israel.
That’s the best angle I could come up with. What do you think of it?
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 1686
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: Dark Earth Timeline Discussion
It is a very well thought out and detailed attempt. As such, I really hate to pull it down, but it has a few assumptions at the base which make it collapse:
- Israel didn’t refuse to take part in the Baghdad Pact. Rather, that was a decision by the Arabs with some American nudging. Britain and Israel were in favour of it joining
- Israel is part of the Empire and Commonwealth as a Dominion. It is easily the most independent and ‘different’ of the Dominions, due to ethnic and religious difference, but it still a full member and partner
- It didn’t conquer anyone, but rather was established in the 1930s with its current borders, including the Golan and Sinai
- It received its nuclear weapons from Britain and fought in 1956 as part of the Empire, not as a separate entity. It also fought in WW2, Korea, Malaya and Vietnam
- As British forces have progressively pulled back from Egypt, they shifted a whole division, the 5th Armoured, to Israel. As this unit deployed back to Britain, their equipment has been left behind as a POMCUS type set up
- There are still British air, sea and land forces based in Israel, along with a US Marine brigade
There is a lot here:
https://alternate-timelines.proboards.com/post/43322
(The absence of the archived board is vexsome for situations like these, but needs must)
So excellent argument and reasoning, but off base.
- Israel didn’t refuse to take part in the Baghdad Pact. Rather, that was a decision by the Arabs with some American nudging. Britain and Israel were in favour of it joining
- Israel is part of the Empire and Commonwealth as a Dominion. It is easily the most independent and ‘different’ of the Dominions, due to ethnic and religious difference, but it still a full member and partner
- It didn’t conquer anyone, but rather was established in the 1930s with its current borders, including the Golan and Sinai
- It received its nuclear weapons from Britain and fought in 1956 as part of the Empire, not as a separate entity. It also fought in WW2, Korea, Malaya and Vietnam
- As British forces have progressively pulled back from Egypt, they shifted a whole division, the 5th Armoured, to Israel. As this unit deployed back to Britain, their equipment has been left behind as a POMCUS type set up
- There are still British air, sea and land forces based in Israel, along with a US Marine brigade
There is a lot here:
https://alternate-timelines.proboards.com/post/43322
(The absence of the archived board is vexsome for situations like these, but needs must)
So excellent argument and reasoning, but off base.