History, Politics And Current Affairs

I stumbled across this photo of the cruiser USS New Orleans during her shakedown cruise visiting Stockholm. In the photo you also see two Sverige class ships with Gustaf V on the right and Sverige herself to the left. Also in the background you can see the then barracks ship Vanadis which started out life as a steam frigate in 1862. She’s mostly remembered now fpr her 1883-1885 circumnavigation.

Well I thought it was a neat photo anyway.

The SVIERGEs look very Italian from that angle.

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:17 am The SVIERGEs look very Italian from that angle.

Yeah I suppose, I don’t know if it was some intentional similarity or not but they did look abroad and incorporated design ideas that they liked.

Found another couple of photos from the same visit.

I colourised them- thought you may like.

Craiglxviii wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:15 pm I colourised them- thought you may like. FCC13E15-3362-4D1A-88A3-1127B015E142.jpegA9124271-6423-4A7F-9FA0-4D228332C91E.jpegF1416659-AE66-48D8-81B8-F176F115CFCF.jpeg

That’s neat, thanks.

This isn’t the New Orleans but it has to do with two of the Sverige class ships, Gustaf V and Drottning Viktoria.

In the past on the board there’s been a little bit of discussion on how they would have fared against potential opponents and I came across something I had forgotten about. That they came surprisingly close to a battle with what was considered their primary opponent in the WWII era, the Deutschland class.

You see on March 21st 1939 Gustaf V and Drottning Viktoria were in transit after having work done to their magazines to accomodate the new pointy shell types that were bekng introduced. As they headed north along the coast between Sweden and Bornholm together with three destroyers and five submarines, the destroyer Stockholm signalled that there was an unknown warship at its bow. Soon after a follow up signal indicated that three Deutschland class cruisers were closing. As the ships kept closing and reached a distance of 13 kilometers from the Swedish force the force commander signalled action stations and began battle preparations. The tension seems to have been significant as they considered that they were outmatched by three Deutschlands in the open sea. The cruisers trained their guns on the Swedish ships but didn’t open fire, though loud laughter could be heard by the sonar operators.

Still, if the Swedish commander had deemed that the cruisers were intending to attack he might have opted to beat them to the punch and then we would have known how effective the Sveriges were. I suspect that the Deutschlands would at least have been at risk of taking some torpedo damage though given the destroyers and submarines.

A sketch of the encounter can be seen below. G5 and DV are the Sverige class ships, jagare = destroyers, ubåtar = submarines. At 8 am is when action stations were sounded on the Swedish ships.

It probably would have gone very poorly for the German panzerschiffs. Five submarines at that range would really ruin somebody’s day, especially because the German ships would have been maintaining a relatively straight course to benefit their gunnery.

Which three destroyers were there?

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:29 pm It probably would have gone very poorly for the German panzerschiffs. Five submarines at that range would really ruin somebody’s day, especially because the German ships would have been maintaining a relatively straight course to benefit their gunnery.

Which three destroyers were there?

Yeah it wouldn’t have been optimal for them in that sense.

I don’t have the names handy but if memory serves they were Göteborg class. They often operated together as they could maneuver in formation at top speed if needed then, they were faster than preceeding classes.
Example:

Ok, a week after the occupation of Czechoslovakia so general tension is understandable.

Considering the Deutschlands the primary opponents is odd. They were long range raiders, not coast defense ships. And my money would have been on the Swedes. They had substantial armor, the Deutschlands didn't. An 80mm belt is Leander class level. The CD ships had also been rebuild in the 30s. So not comperable at all to the Norwegian ones.

M.Becker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:45 am Ok, a week after the occupation of Czechoslovakia so general tension is understandable.

Considering the Deutschlands the primary opponents is odd. They were long range raiders, not coast defense ships. And my money would have been on the Swedes. They had substantial armor, the Deutschlands didn't. An 80mm belt is Leander class level. The CD ships had also been rebuild in the 30s. So not comperable at all to the Norwegian ones.

I think the reasoning was that they were the most potent German ships that might be available in an action against Sweden. The battleships and such were believed to be tied down facing the Royal Navy, and they were too big anyway to be practical in the constricted waters that the Swedes intended to fight in. As I understand it they essentially guessed correctly, the German side couldn’t spare the assets to handle Sweden, and what they could spare was not deemed sufficient to handle the Swedish navy, and the Sverige class in particular. So it was an important factor as to why Sweden wasn’t invaded.

Micael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:16 am I think the reasoning was that they were the most potent German ships that might be available in an action against Sweden. The battleships and such were believed to be tied down facing the Royal Navy, and they were too big anyway to be practical in the constricted waters that the Swedes intended to fight in. As I understand it they essentially guessed correctly, the German side couldn’t spare the assets to handle Sweden, and what they could spare was not deemed sufficient to handle the Swedish navy, and the Sverige class in particular. So it was an important factor as to why Sweden wasn’t invaded.

Decent defense spending certainly didn't hurt but Sweden didn't need to be invaded. While you had the iron ore Germany needed, Germany had the coal you needed. Only Germany.

M.Becker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:51 pm

Micael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:16 am I think the reasoning was that they were the most potent German ships that might be available in an action against Sweden. The battleships and such were believed to be tied down facing the Royal Navy, and they were too big anyway to be practical in the constricted waters that the Swedes intended to fight in. As I understand it they essentially guessed correctly, the German side couldn’t spare the assets to handle Sweden, and what they could spare was not deemed sufficient to handle the Swedish navy, and the Sverige class in particular. So it was an important factor as to why Sweden wasn’t invaded.

Decent defense spending certainly didn't hurt but Sweden didn't need to be invaded. While you had the iron ore Germany needed, Germany had the coal you needed. Only Germany.

Yes that was another aspect. There were multiple reasons that worked together to dissuade an invasion. The Sverige class was one, what you mentioned was another (and a part of that was that both Sweden and Germany correctly believed that the Brits planned to bomb the iron mines if Germany invaded). Another was Göring’s fascination with Sweden and his belief that Sweden would be absorbed without fighting when needed, which he argued to Hitler as a case against invading.

The navy and the Sverige class seems to have brough Raeder into the camp arguing against invasion, like I said above he didn’t feel he had enough resources to spare from the main fight to properly deal with the Swedish navy. And an invasion force in Sweden would need to be supplied by sea so the prospect of having the Sverige class battlegroup running rampant amongst the supply ships was not an attractive prospect.

That's especially true after the pasting the Kriegsmarine took during the invasion of Norway. The loss of destroyers was never made good and the significant losses of cruisers also unbalanced the fleet even more.

David Newton wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:06 pm That's especially true after the pasting the Kriegsmarine took during the invasion of Norway. The loss of destroyers was never made good and the significant losses of cruisers also unbalanced the fleet even more.

Otoh, after Norway the Germans could come by land. At least some of them. But at that time Sweden was already surrounded, so no need to invade any more.

M.Becker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:14 pm

David Newton wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:06 pm That's especially true after the pasting the Kriegsmarine took during the invasion of Norway. The loss of destroyers was never made good and the significant losses of cruisers also unbalanced the fleet even more.

Otoh, after Norway the Germans could come by land. At least some of them. But at that time Sweden was already surrounded, so no need to invade any more.

The threat of invasion came in a couple of waves. The initial period is the one that was most affected by the factors I mentioned above, and can be said to run from the initial invasion of Norway and Denmark to the start of Operation Barbarossa. Then you could say that the threat was reduced further for a few months at least as the focus was on the eastern front.

However by February 1942 Hitler had begun to become displeased with lacking Swedish support for the war, and was also doubting that Sweden could repel a British invasion if that came. So proper planning began for an invasion of Sweden by Germany. The invasion was named Operation Polarfuchs (oddly it shared a name with a part of Barbarossa) and the plan was devised by lieutenant General Rudolf Bamler and major general Adolf von Schell.

Unbeknownst to the Germans Sweden had quickly cracked the encryption used for the messages sent through Swedish telegraph cables between Germany and Norway, and equally fortunately the Germans sent just about everything through them, including highly classified information. Early warning of the impending Operation Barbarossa had been gained through this. And the German invasion plans were also communicated via this route.

So Sweden immediately became aware of the plans and the reasons for them, and decided on a show of force to reassure the Germans that Sweden could defend itself against the British (and against Germany). More than 300,000 troops were sent up north by the border with Norway where they staged the largest ever exercise of the Swedish army, in -30C degree cold. At the same time they also told the Finnish emissary in Stockholm that Sweden would defend itself against a British invasion, presuming that the Finns would leak this information to Germany. So they did.

This acted as a strong argument for going through with the invasion although the tension persisted for a few months with Goebbels lamenting that they hadn’t invaded Sweden along with Norway and Denmark in 1940 as Sweden had ceased to have a right to exist as a nation and it would be a lot harder to do in 1942 as the Swedish military capability had grown considerably. Another aspect was that the plan which had been drafted called for considerably more troops and equipment to launch the invasion from Norway than were actually present there. So those would have had to be pulled from elsewhere, and it looked more than doubtful that it would be possible to scrape together what was needed. So the invasion never came to pass. There was a second time in 1943 when it looked like Germany might be building up for an invasion but nothing came from that either.

David Newton wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:06 pm That's especially true after the pasting the Kriegsmarine took during the invasion of Norway. The loss of destroyers was never made good and the significant losses of cruisers also unbalanced the fleet even more.

Considering how one of those cruisers was lost to Victorian weaponry…

Micael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:36 pm
However by February 1942 Hitler had begun to become displeased with lacking Swedish support for the war, and was also doubting that Sweden could repel a British invasion if that came.

I wonder how he thought this invasion was supposed to happen? In the extreme north through occupied Norway. That sounds as absurd as one through the Kattegatt(Denmark Norway gap).

M.Becker wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:02 am

Micael wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:36 pm
However by February 1942 Hitler had begun to become displeased with lacking Swedish support for the war, and was also doubting that Sweden could repel a British invasion if that came.

I wonder how he thought this invasion was supposed to happen? In the extreme north through occupied Norway. That sounds as absurd as one through the Kattegatt(Denmark Norway gap).

Well, after the Unmentionable Sea Mammal was successfully completed, there would be all of these barges just sitting around....

Is it possible they were concerned about the UK sending troops east by land from Narvik or one of the other coastal cities they occupied during the german invasion? I mean, it would be a foolish thing to do, but people get upset about all kinds of foolish possibilities.

Interesting how I've phrased that, isn't it? The germans invaded, the UK occupied. Same thing, except I think the UK was far less likely to randomly kill civilians.

Belushi TD