Page 1 of 1

The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:51 pm
by Nik_SpeakerToCats
In OTL, the 'Alpine Redoubt' turned out to be mostly fantasy, contrived to confuddle Allied planning.
IIRC, was begun 'too little, too late' after the Ardennes' offensive proved unsuccessful...

Beyond some Alpine fortifications, lest Italy collapse utterly, earlier consideration could have been taken as 'Defeatism', a fatal error.

In TBO, was the Redoubt more real ?
And would the area around Berchtesgaden been epicentre ??

Also, in TBO, were they still holding vast 'Nuremberg-grade' rallies to 'enhance morale' ??

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:59 pm
by Lordroel
Nik_SpeakerToCats wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 6:51 pm In OTL, the 'Alpine Redoubt' turned out to be mostly fantasy, contrived to confuddle Allied planning.
IIRC, was begun 'too little, too late' after the Ardennes' offensive proved unsuccessful...

Beyond some Alpine fortifications, lest Italy collapse utterly, earlier consideration could have been taken as 'Defeatism', a fatal error.

In TBO, was the Redoubt more real ?
And would the area around Berchtesgaden been epicentre ??

Also, in TBO, were they still holding vast 'Nuremberg-grade' rallies to 'enhance morale' ??
Where Austria and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (German occupied Czechoslovakia) also hit during the TBO.

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2025 8:28 pm
by Belushi TD
Its my understanding they only hit the cities that were in Germany as of the 1933 borders. In some of the Conrad's Eye novels, and some of the shorts, I seem to remember that Austria got some fallout, but none of its cities were hit. None of the cities in occupied territory were hit either, with the exception of the conventional B-36 strikes.

As far as the Alpine Redoubt, I have no recollection of such a thing. I strongly suspect proposing such would have been grounds for immediate execution for "defeatism" or some such bull.

Logically, why would they even think to do that? Italy is a neutral, the Hitlerites have been fighting for their lives on the static eastern front for 6 years, and the western side of their ill gotten empire has been routinely devastated by the Murderer's Row of the Essex carriers, and then the Midway carriers. They've got FAR better things to do with their time and concrete than create a defeatist redoubt in the Alps.

Rereading this, I can see where the last paragraph could appear insulting. It was not intended to be, just a list of reasons why they wouldn't, and I don't have time to rewrite it. Sorry.

Belushi TD

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 12:18 pm
by Nik_SpeakerToCats
Thank you.
That analysis seems 'sound enough'.

Of course, such 'smoke & mirrors' could back-fire most horribly if US via hood-winked Allen Dulles became convinced a 'fall-back' contingency AKA 'WEREWOLF' was indeed being prepared near B-squiggle.
Much of it based around the 'Movers & Shakers' grand estates / hunting preserves.
"Oh, no, you don't !!"

IIRC, the SS routinely commandeered materiel and logistics resources that would have been much, much better used to supply the beset Eastern Front. Crafting a 'den' for 'WEREWOLF' at the expense of the Feldgrey (sp?), though tactical and strategic nonsense, would yet fit.....

Were they still doing grand parades ??
Or would razing Nuremburg on an appropriate anniversary suffice ??

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 12:41 pm
by jemhouston
From what I remember, Loki found out they were still running trains to the extermination camps, which kept delaying Russian front offensives, the Nazis were they stupid.

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2025 8:46 pm
by Craiglxviii
I don’t recall any mention of an Alpine Redoubt.

However… being familiar with the area… it wouldn’t take much work to build one. Excellent defensive terrain indeed. A visit to Monte Grappa is sobering indeed.

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:44 pm
by Calder
Considering that the closest significant ground forces are about 1500 miles away from the Alpine redoubt I don't think there is any chance that Germany would build this up at all. They have MUCH higher priorities.

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 6:48 pm
by Belushi TD
Calder wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:44 pm Considering that the closest significant ground forces are about 1500 miles away from the Alpine redoubt I don't think there is any chance that Germany would build this up at all. They have MUCH higher priorities.
That being said, I can also see several of the nazi party muckety mucks pulling a Dascha kind of thing where they built "hunting cabins" and so forth that consumed a noticeable portion of the GPD. Those who owned them would be... out of sorts, should they get a nuke dropped on them.

Belushi TD

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 6:27 pm
by Nik_SpeakerToCats
Thank you.
I took these excellent analyses into account..
#01 Razing B-squiggle and surrounds says, "Don't go there..."
#02 Razing the vast parade field at Nuremburg is serious 'FU_!!'
#03 Razing W-squiggle Castle killed many senior SS, another 'FU_!!'

Happens #03 missed Himmler, who'd been repeatedly delayed by car break-downs.

Due cloud cover, Cpt. Eastwood's bomber had to spiral down, get visual sighting, then climb again.
Time enough for Luftwaffe to some-what respond...

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 8:46 pm
by jemhouston
I may be wrong, but I thought the B-36s were told to use the radar bombing and not rely on the optical one.

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 4:18 am
by Nik_SpeakerToCats
Perhaps, as capabilities and limitations of Magnetron RADAR, like the Norden bomb-sight, were classified 'Up the Wazoo', this was a 'polite' way to say they had problems with the target ?
Given was a big, stony lump atop a big, stony ridge rather than street grid on the flat ?

Unlike, eg UK's sprawling open-plan castles, such as Conway and Caernarvon, whose bold 'trace' or 'circuit' of walls and towers would give a clear lock, W-squiggle was a comparatively compact hollow triangle.

They'd certainly want their 'Instant Sunshine; to reach the deep inner court-yard and its windowed rooms rather than be shaded by those thick, mostly-Medieval masonry walls...

Possibly took several passes from different angles to catch it 'Just Right'...
;)

Nuke pilot's side-arm ? ??

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 8:19 pm
by Nik_SpeakerToCats
Tangential, what 'issue' side-arm would *this* Cpt. Eastwood carry ?

Might he also have snub-nose .32, .35 /.36 or .38 revolver in ankle or knee holster ??
--

I've a chapter written for 'FarStrider, another for 'Fresno', but MONGOOSE refuses to go away...

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:31 pm
by Eaglenine2
I thought aviators carried .38 revolvers or M1911 at this time?

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:14 am
by Craiglxviii
Eaglenine2 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:31 pm I thought aviators carried .38 revolvers or M1911 at this time?
They did, yes.

Re: The 'Alpine Redoubt' ??

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:51 pm
by Nik_SpeakerToCats
Thank you.

I'd almost despaired of gathering a 'critical mass' of back-ground for the Wewelsburg Mission when Amazon flagged that a title I'd wish-listed had now been deep-discounted. So, I'm getting their last copy of Flight Craft 29: Boeing B-29 Superfortress Paperback – 30 May 2023 by Ben Skipper (Author)

There are *better* references, and I've a zoo of search-links, but this seems to scratch that 'Is it Convincing ??' itch that oft-plagues my Muse....
:D :D
Happily, I'm again writing 'Fresno' chapters faster than I'm posting, with next due tomorrow or Saturday...
:D :D