History, Politics And Current Affairs

So particularly in light that we’re intending to be full members of NATO in the near future, we may have a slight issue with how our rank structure is a bit…odd…compared to the general NATO norm, at least as I am aware.

So what’s the issue then? Well first off I’ve got to explain that we currently have what is referred as a three tiered command structure. There’s one group that’s called gruppbefäl, and this is straight forward. It’s simply junior NCOs, and are translated into the NATO OR structure as up to OR-5. This is fairly unproblematic, however with the rest we start getting into some issues.

The other two are specialistofficerare and officerare. Confusingly now, these are both considered as officers (the SOs go to an academy for 1.5 years and the Os go to another academy for 3 years). But the former are translated into NATO speak as OR-6 to OR-9, and the latter as OF-1 and up. One complication is that in reality they’re not entirely what an American for instance would consider an NCO. They have powers and responsibilities that are sort of a mix between NCO, WO and O.

The second complication is tjänsteställning, which I’m not even sure how to translate. Paygrade, command authority? Because you see, despite the specialistofficerare being translated as OR ranks, in the Swedish system their command authority runs in parallell with that of the lower officer ranks. The first SO rank is below 2nd Lt, the second is equal to 2nd Lt, the third is equal to Lt, the fourth equal to Cpt, and the fifth equal to LtCol.

Now, as you might surmise from this, this also means that they are used slightly differently than in for instance the US (they can in some cases have command of a company, as an example), and they have a bit of a different dynamic in relation to junior officers than what I understand that senior NCOs have there. You may see an SO filling a role that would be reserved for a junior officer in the US. Some foresee this as being a potential complication when we’re to send people to joint NATO HQs and the like in the future, because it’s potentially going to be a hard time explaining why we’ve sent someone we’ve listed as an OR-7 to a position nominally being an OF-2 level one.

Not to mention how to try to explain that they have a command authority that runs in parallell with that of the officers.

So, yeah. I think we’re going to have some work ahead of us there.

Michael,

Could you clarify something?

Do the specialistofficerare go the the academy for 1.5 years after rising through the ranks to reach OR-5? Or are they a separate career track from the beginning?

James1978 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:52 pm Michael,

Could you clarify something?

Do the specialistofficerare go the the academy for 1.5 years after rising through the ranks to reach OR-5? Or are they a separate career track from the beginning?

Good question, when this structure began to be introduced in 2009 (based on an older structure of pre-1983) they were essentially going straight from conscript service to the academy. In the years since this has morphed into them predominantly coming from those who have reached OR-5 already, though this isn’t an absolute requirement. You have to apply on your own to the academy, and then get a leave of absense from your regular position and such too (which is a bit weird), so it’s a separate track in that sense.

Now, there’s another thing I have to add. Between 1983 and 2009 we had a ”single officer” system usually referred to as NBO, which started with the merging of the senior NCO corps and the officer corps. In that time period people who had officer ranks filled both senior NCO and officer roles, with the senior NCO ones essentially being filled by people up to the rank of captain (who stayed there and didn’t go on to major etc.) In the years since 2009 the military started changing the ranks of those who went to the officer academy prior to a year the training changed (I think 2006 or something like that), and who hadn’t either become major or deemed to have a ”prognosis” to become a major, into the SO ranks. First voluntarily, but come this January 1st it’s mandatory. So people who were lieutenant/captain ”for life” has been morphing into SO ranks (and oh BOY has there been bickering over this). Meaning that essentially those holding the top two SO ranks today are all ex-lt/cpt, as well as some in the lower ones.

And I also forgot to add that the SO ranks are ”sergeant” and such, just to muddy the waters a bit extra.

Also, as a result from this we’ve now begun instituting that everyone holds the rank you both have the formal qualifications for, and is connected to the position you hold. So someone who is an Lt and changes to a new position that is assessed as a 2nd Lt position have to swap down rank insignias and such. Not sure if this made things better or just more confusing…

And then I haven’t even covered us Homeguard peeps, we have same rank names/insignias but are a separate category of people. The career people outweigh us majorly as far as actual command authority goes, we have career guys who hold the third SO rank as batallion ”mentors”, instructing and developing us including the CO and such.

Crystal clear?

Well the Household Cavalry rivals the Swedes with its NCO ranks I think. Regimental Quartermaster Corporal anyone??

David Newton wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:45 pm Well the Household Cavalry rivals the Swedes with its NCO ranks I think. Regimental Quartermaster Corporal anyone??

That is one thing that has gone away here, that some units have ”unique” ranks in place of the normal ones. The artillery and air defence (which was once split from the artillery) used ”konstapel” (constable) in place of ”korpral” (corporal) for instance. There were a few others like that, but they got axed in the 70’s.

It may be an issue to sort out when people are integrated into a NATO HQ but that should be all. Units assigned to a NATO force remain organized under their own national structure.

Canadian Warrant Officers are similarly not the same as US Warrant Officers

Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:15 pm It may be an issue to sort out when people are integrated into a NATO HQ but that should be all. Units assigned to a NATO force remain organized under their own national structure.

Canadian Warrant Officers are similarly not the same as US Warrant Officers

Yeah I was thinking about the US take on warrant officers, in a way it’s that which is the most similar to the Swedish SO, but with the exception that as I understand it they rank in between NCOs and Os.

I’m thinking it won’t be too much of an issue when we interact with Norway and Finland, which there’s expected to be a lot of*, but more when they show up at the ”big” NATO HQs.

*Seems to be tentative plans for a multinational division HQ up north with Sweden, Norway and Finland staffing it, among other things.

Micael wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:50 am*Seems to be tentative plans for a multinational division HQ up north with Sweden, Norway and Finland staffing it, among other things.

Return of the 6th Division?

delfin wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:41 pm

Micael wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:50 am*Seems to be tentative plans for a multinational division HQ up north with Sweden, Norway and Finland staffing it, among other things.

Return of the 6th Division?

Could be, you never know.

So we’ve just added another SO rank ”Överfanjunkare”. I swear I don’t have enough time to memorize these insignias before they’re changed again.

So now there’s six ranks that are translated as being within the OR-6-OR-9 span. Hmm.

David Newton wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:45 pm Well the Household Cavalry rivals the Swedes with its NCO ranks I think. Regimental Quartermaster Corporal anyone??

And Corporal-Major.

Because one cannot be a servant (sergeant, literally translated) in the Household Cavalry…

Makes perfect sense! Much more than the originally proposed RAF rank structure!

Micael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:42 pm So we’ve just added another SO rank ”Överfanjunkare”. I swear I don’t have enough time to memorize these insignias before they’re changed again.

So now there’s six ranks that are translated as being within the OR-6-OR-9 span. Hmm.

What does fanjunkare/ overfanjunkare translate into English as, please?

Btw the insignia make less sense than something out of the 1760s.

Craiglxviii wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:33 am

Micael wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:42 pm So we’ve just added another SO rank ”Överfanjunkare”. I swear I don’t have enough time to memorize these insignias before they’re changed again.

So now there’s six ranks that are translated as being within the OR-6-OR-9 span. Hmm.

What does fanjunkare/ overfanjunkare translate into English as, please?

Btw the insignia make less sense than something out of the 1760s.

Well, ehm, a few years ago they translated fanjunkare as Colour Sergeant I believe. But I’ve only seen the OR-translations in recent years.

Fanjunkare comes from German fahnenjunker but that rank is a lower one. Över means over (surprise) (like the Germans use ”ober”), so can be translated as ”senior” in this context. So Senior Colour Sergeant? Maybe?

And the insignia… This current ”style” of army insignia originated in 1952 (IIRC), and was essentially pilfered from your officer insignias with the stars and crowns. The officers have stars without the dotted borders around them, and the SO (back then underofficerare) got this dotted variant of them. The only brand new thing in this batch is the wreath on the överfanjunkare one, which I think is stolen from the Americans. (Pre-1952 we had essentially the same insignia as Norway). As for the other branches I don’t know what to say.