History, Politics And Current Affairs

Just thinking, and forgive me if you’ve covered this, but if the RN has escort carriers in service, then there might be a role for the Short Seamew. Coastal Command might also use it.

More than alright, Bernard.

As it happens, I have 'covered' the Seamew, but not in a piece yet published anywhere. The idea of a second-class ASW aircraft for 1950/51 amid the Korean War rearmament and preparation for a much larger war is naturally intriguing, and my next Korean War article (partly written, but wholly fleshed out/structured, if that makes sense) touches upon the procurement of the Short Seamew as a reserve carrier-borne ASW plane for what was still laid up at that point. Several hundred were procured for the RNVR, both carrier-borne for the FAA and land based for the RNAS.

What happened was that a Third World War didn't come during the 1950s/1957 Year of Maximum Danger (although to be 'fair', things came mighty close in 1956!).

The Korean War era planes, such as the fronline Gannet and the reserve Seamew, were then replaced in the late 1950s and early 1960s by a combination of four new aircraft - the Armstrong-Whitworth Albion twin turboprop MPA, the Short Sydney ASW jet flying boat, the Fairey Rotodyne and the Blackburn Bermuda. The last was a twin 4000shp turboprop carrier based ASW plane that entered service without too much fanfare at the end of 1961.

In the main in the 1960s, the RN ASW role was largely taken up by the Rotodyne and helicopters, as these could operate off much smaller vessels than carriers. The Andrew had also shed its WW2 construction light fleets in the late 1950s to save money for the very expensive fleet carrier programme, including the nuclear powered Ark Royals, and the remaining Illustrious class ships still around in 1960 were gone by 1964/65 through a combination of that and general age. The Bermuda was then deployed in small numbers on the fleet carriers - the 1940s Maltas, the 1950s Audacious class and the Ark Royals - whilst the Rotodyne could be operated off destroyers, cruisers and the new construction large frigates as well as the carriers. So the poor old Blackburn Bermuda never really got a chance to fully shine during the 1960s.

From 1964 or so, both the USN and RN looked upon the Soviet and other submarine threats, the issue of block obsolescence of much of the wartime construction that had served them well since the Last War, and that there would be a very big gap coming in the early 1970s when the Essex class CVSs went bye-bye; the British also were starting to miss having smaller carriers about, and were looking at various solutions, including 'Escort Cruisers' and some form of Light Anti-Submarine Warfare Aircraft Carrier. Both navies also had quite a lot of stars in their eyes about the potential of the P.1154 Harrier and other VSTOL. They agreed to pursue three joint programmes: one for a frigate, one for a light ASW carrier and one for an even lighter helicopter carrier.

The 'light ASW carrier' grew in size quite quickly in the joint design process from ~ 32,000t to just over 40,000t as more systems were added on, but ended up being quite capable in their own niche.

The helicopter carrier became the CVHE or the Helicopter Escort Aircraft Carrier, which also grew from an initial idea of a ship around 15,000 - 16,000t to something a little bit smaller than the 1990s HMS Ocean. They can carry Harriers, but operating more than 4 pushes things a bit; they are ideally suited to helicopters and Rotodynes, as they lack the ski jump fitted on the CVLs, as well as a lot of fuel and weapons storage.

The role of the CVHE is to sail alongside convoys and provide up to two dozen helos or Rotodynes, or very much a defensive mission, whereas the ASW CVLs have more of a hunter-killer role.

Where does this leave fixed wing ASW carrier planes as of 1975? In 2.5 categories.

1.) The firstline role, of the USN A/S-3s and the RN Fairey Swordfish is for a twin jet multirole ASW/ASuW plane deployed on the big decks, having taken over from the S-2s and the Bermudas in that respect. They are augmented by Rotodynes deployed on the carriers, and on the cruisers and battlecruisers which ride shotgun in carrier battle groups.

2.) The second line role is filled by Rotodynes and helicopters, but there are efforts to develop an VSTOL ASW aircraft which can operate freely off the CVLs and in a slightly more restricted fashion off the CVHEs. Squaring that circle is an interesting challenge.

2.5) Where have the 1960s generation of turboprop ASW carrier planes gone? Out to a farm in the country or the boneyard? Not quite. The actual fate of quite a few of them has been to be transferred to service on the four Floating Fortresses out in the Atlantic, where they can provide coverage and patrol over large areas. Given that each of these platforms were designed in the 1940s and 50s to operate up to 250 aircraft, some of the older planes are better suited to them.


As a final note, RAF Coastal Command hasn't existed here, what with the RNAS keeping that role and that of the FAA through the 1920s and 1930s; in the Second World War, this served as something of an operational advantage, as, unlike Coastal Command, the RNAS wasn't regarded as a slightly slow red-headed stepchild to be given hand-me-downs and odd socks.

I find it interesting that there are still guns on the Midway, United States, Malta, Audacious and Ark Royal classes, presumably for AAW?

Have aircraft not exceeded the abilities of the guns to be trained and reacted to, like what happened IOTL?

Or was this how they were built, and the guns were removed during refits and its just not mentioned here?

Belushi TD

The gun armaments on the British and American carriers reflected their configuration in 1960/61 (someone really needs to do some detailed updated orbats ).

The last 5" guns on Midway were removed in 1977 in OTL, although many of the original 18 had been whittled down before then.

For the British ships, the Midway equivalent Maltas did have some of their 3.75" mounts removed in various 1960s refits, to be replaced by more modern missile systems, Legion Close-in Weapons Systems and other new lighter autocannnon. The same has happened to the Audacious class and the Ark Royals, but none of them have been completely shorn of their guns yet

(Incidentally, the historical Ark Royal similarly lost her guns in stages: https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Royal- ... -Royal.htm )

Why haven't they been completely removed yet? Three things - political interference, countering threats other than aircraft and missiles and numbers:

- The RN has been subject to some interesting degrees of political interference by Prime Minister Stanley Barton on some very particular aspects of design and operations - some admirals have whispered that it is their misfortune to cop two Churchills in one lifetime - and one of these is to do with gun armament. It turns out that he was talking to President Kennedy during one of his trips to the White House, and they fell into considerable agreement that it was worth retaining them, if but to reserve space for the type of future rapid fire guns or combined gun-missile mounts that were then being developed.
- As well as aircraft, missiles and politicians, there are other dangers in this world for ships of all sizes, ranging from extremely large ones that swim around in the Pacific and have attacked Tokyo and Shanghai and sunk an Imperial Chinese battleship, to others which might not be quite so large or formidable, but which nevertheless can cause significant damage. Having the ability to engage and drive off nasties like these at distances of 25,000 to 35,000 yards cheaply and without cracking open/taking away from their wartime armament is not seen as altogether a bad thing

- Numbers: The following explanation is provided by Kevin Malone from The Office

"Big ship change take time. Ship take time in yard = Ship not able to go out and play, or cover other ship which come back home from play. Not long ago, many ship go out and play far away in place called Viet Nam. Big play. Long time. Many ship only get short time in port. Now, that play time over, but ship still need go all over. Navy plan big ship change party. Call it SLEP. It let them make big changes, plus make old ship seem like not so old any more. First Langley, then United States class ships and other Enterprises. Navy want long term have 24 carriers able go out and play; for now, put up with 20. Just now, not have 20 yet - have 19, and some them be old Midways which can't play so good."



Hopefully that makes sense, but the gist of it is that serious yard times where *some* gun mounts get taken off and replaced with extended decks or new weapons is a can that has been kicked down the road throughout the 1960s with Vietnam, and now is finally starting to get moving. The idea of trying to get (the DE version of, which would be a tad larger) some sort of CVV, or conventionally powered 'medium' carrier is at the least being looked at, as one of several proposals.

(Simon waits for someone to notice that the USN has an Asiatic Fleet and a Mediterranean Fleet in addition to the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, or to notice the other hidden Easter eggs )