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Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2026 5:01 pm
by Bernard Woolley
OOC: Some cross posting from this thread.
The South Africans were also close witnesses to the failure of Rhodesia (indeed they had pulled the rug out from under the Smith Regime). Other than the most extremist hardcore Afrikaners, they knew you can just defeat an insurgency by military means alone. You need a strong political element, like the British had in Malaya. A government can't survive by just offering the status quo when a large part (or majority) of the population is disenfranchised, and/or actively oppressed. The Rhodesians forgot that until it was too late.
The South Africans knew that if you offer people change, even if it is incremental, most will take it and stick with the lower risk of the existing system reformed, than the greater risk of a violent revolution. Like Britain did in the 18th, 19th and early 20th Centuries, the South Africans reformed just fast enough to stay ahead of the curve. They also made sure that while elements of the ANC and IFP were brought into government in political positions, whites remained in charge of the police, judiciary, civil service etc. until a Black Middle Class had developed. What is interesting is that if you look at South Africa in 2026, the Black, Coloured and Indian Middle Classes tends to vote with the White Middle Class, as they share interests. There's no such unity between the working class population, who are generally still split along ethnic lines.

It did help that a lot of the ANC was (and is) centre-left, rather than far left and the IFP is right-leading. Interestingly, Nelson Mandela, who was released from Robben Island during the war, was an admirer of Margaret Thatcher. Even if he did not share her economic views. Mandela and several other members of the ANC joining the South African government did lead to a split. The hard-left members of the ANC would eventually merge with the SACP, following which a lot of them would end up in jail.
Yes, and it didn't hurt that the country has gone to considerable efforts post-apartheid to bring better living standards to even the poorest populations of their country. That's why their cities aren't ringed by shantytowns anymore, and the ways they've done things are quite unique and quite smart. I don't know whose idea the Small Landholdings Initiative was, but I hope whoever it was got a nice promotion. It just made too much sense honestly, I'm surprised it hadn't happened much sooner than it did.
Yep, and not much of value was lost if you ask me, because an awful lot of the ANC's better braintrust - Mandela, Thabo Mbeki, Trevor Manuel, Joe Modise - all were prepared by the time that South Africa was involved the War to support the adapting of their nation. Remember what happened when Modise and Magnus Malan started talking in the 1980s - they were totally opposite sides of the conflict but both recognized the other was right in what they sought - Malan was intent on defeating communism, Modise made him see it couldn't happen without blacks being a part of the new South Africa and brought him candidates that had already begun formal military training before the ANC's relationship with the USSR came apart in the 80s. A bunch of those guys ended up in command positions in the United States and from what I understand they were rather good at it, even by the standards of the SADF, who were generally pretty competent at what they were doing.

Nothing will ever convince me that part of the reason South Africa turned out better than a lot of us thought it would wasn't because of the War. When apartheid's enforcers finally figured out the obvious and when the apartheid's opponents recognized they'd all fail without closing the gap between them, they finally met, figured out where they had common ground and went that way, and some times they even came to like one another. It was probably the best way to sort things out, and it benefitted us stateside too. We needed all the help we could get, and the South Africans were good help to have.


And, yes, Mandela was indeed an admirer of Margaret Thatcher in @. He often asked British diplomats to pass his regards along.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2026 1:37 pm
by Lordroel
Photo: Low Flying Su-27s of the Soviet Air Force along the Soviet occupied Alaska coast 1988.

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Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2026 3:12 am
by Matt Wiser
Baja War: A Mexican BMP-2 after being hit by fire from a Bradley IFV from 3rd Armored Division, Northern Sonora, 2 Jan 2010.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2026 11:48 am
by Wolfman
Matt Wiser wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2026 3:12 am Baja War: A Mexican BMP-2 after being hit by fire from a Bradley IFV from 3rd Armored Division, Northern Sonora, 2 Jan 2010.
Burn, baby, burn!

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2026 4:45 pm
by Bernard Woolley
RAF Phantom FGR.2 scrambling from RAF Wattisham, circa 1987.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2026 7:13 pm
by Wolfman
Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Fri Sep 25, 2026 4:45 pm RAF Phantom FGR.2 scrambling from RAF Wattisham, circa 1987.
Kickin’ in the burn!

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2026 9:51 am
by Lordroel
Photo: Soviet Navy Project 1134B NATO Kara class cruiser, Kerch, firing the M-11 Shtorm SAM during training, the Kerch who was assigned to the Black Sea Fleet was unable to leave the Black Sea Fleet during World War III due the Turkey closing the Bosphorus Strait thereby preventing the Kerch from leaving, this helped here and here 3 sister ships assigned to the Black Sea Fleet to survive the war, she latter served as part of the Rump Soviet Union Navy operating out of the Crimea until the fall of the Rump Soviet Union in 2010 when she was scuttled by here crew when Ukrainian forces entered Sevastopol where she was berthed.

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Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2026 4:38 pm
by Bernard Woolley
All six Pegasus Class PHM on patrol off Florida just before the outbreak of war. Visible are USS Pegasus (PHM-1), USS Hercules (PHM-2), USS Taurus (PHM-3), USS Aquila (PHM-4), USS Aries (PHM-5) and USS Gemini (PHM-6). The entire class would be lost in a single engagement with the enemy.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2026 10:23 pm
by jemhouston
I know I have Swiss Cheese memory, but I thought I remember a story where the squadron was wiped out in single day. It might have been the first battle, but the Russians or the Cubas sunk the lot.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2026 2:51 pm
by Bernard Woolley
You may be right. Can’t quite remember.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2026 8:35 pm
by Matt Wiser
Theodore wrote something about it: it was one of the stories he took down after leaving the previous board, along with the North Carolina one.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2026 1:52 pm
by Bernard Woolley
I have updated the caption.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2026 2:14 pm
by Belushi TD
Yep. As I recall, a set of Tarantul class wiped them out, and was, effectively, wiped out in return.

A classic example of "Eggshells armed with sledgehammers"

Belushi TD

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2026 4:47 pm
by Wolfman
I really wish those stories could be reposted…

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2026 2:35 pm
by Lordroel
Photo: A USMC LAV-25 of the 3rd Marine Division comes ashore onto the Alaska coastline from the USS Dubuque. The 3rd Marine Division was put ashore at key locations after the Soviet Surrender in the Northern Theater, 15 Oct 1989.

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Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2026 2:50 pm
by Belushi TD
OOC and possibly a nitpick.....

There's nowhere in Alaska on October 15th that still has the trees that vibrantly green. If they were pine or fir, perhaps, but its fairly obvious that its not either of those two species. The plant in the foreground shouldn't be green either.

Like I said, possibly a nitpick, and its a great photo, but I find it hard to believe that it took place on 15 Oct 1989. I'm not sure Vancouver would be far enough south. That pic looks like it was taken in July or August.

Belushi TD

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2026 3:40 pm
by Lordroel
Belushi TD wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2026 2:50 pm OOC and possibly a nitpick.....

There's nowhere in Alaska on October 15th that still has the trees that vibrantly green. If they were pine or fir, perhaps, but its fairly obvious that its not either of those two species. The plant in the foreground shouldn't be green either.

Like I said, possibly a nitpick, and its a great photo, but I find it hard to believe that it took place on 15 Oct 1989. I'm not sure Vancouver would be far enough south. That pic looks like it was taken in July or August.

Belushi TD
So latter dete then, mabey some re deypployment of the 3rd marine division then, do not know how i schould desribe it.

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2026 7:39 pm
by Lordroel
Photo: A starboard quarter view of the Project 1143 Krechyet (NATO Kiev) class aircraft cruiser Novorossiysk being replenished by a Boris Chilikin class oiler in 1986. She would be sunk in the Battle of Kamchatka by American air power.

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Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2026 3:52 am
by Matt Wiser
USS Truxtun (CGN-35) in SoCal waters on an ASW sweep, early 1989:

Re: Art & Image Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2026 11:58 am
by Lordroel
Photo: A Tornado F2 from the No. 229 Operational Conversion Unit (OCU), Royal Air Force (RAF) conversion unit test firing a Skyflash missile.

Information by Bernard Woolley over at the HPCA preserved by the Waybackmachine: BAe also got the Active Skyflash working by '88. Best Western missile in its class until the Septics got significant stocks of AMRAAM. I do know from a mate on 43 that the Phantom force in the UK shot through almost its entire stock of Skyflash by mid '86 and were reduced to carrying two Skyflash and two AIM-7E Sparrows (from the emergency reserve) for BVR combat until BAeD caught up in early '87.

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