Production Line Relocation

[Belushi TD]

I don't know if it was feasible in the mid 80's but in the early 40's GM partnered with Grumman and turned (among others) their Linden NJ factory from producing civilian cars to Wildcat fighters. The Linden Airport was, at the time, a three runway affair, and they would build the planes on the West side of Route 1 and then haul them across the street to the airport and get them ready for delivery.

That's the kind of thing that if some politician heard about, they would try to make history repeat itself because its good press, and it would bring jobs to the local economy and pretty much guarantee re-election.

https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/c ... mbers.html

Belushi TD

[clancyphile]

Assuming this would be OOC: Stuart and I talked about several facilities that were still in existence at the time of the invasion:

*Curtiss Wright Buffalo NY
*Bell Buffalo NY
*Brewster Warminster PA
*Martin Cleveland OH (Later Great Lakes, and still in one piece today)
*Naval Aircraft Factory Philadelphia NS PA
*Goodyear Airdock Akron OH

EDIT: Martin #2, Middle River MD. May be a problem because of proximity to DC.

Mike

Middle River is actually the northeastern suburbs of Baltimore. It would probably be okay if the DC warhead was only 20 kilotons.

[James1978]

Goodyear is one I have first hand knowledge of, as I actually visited the facility a couple times in the early 90s. The Airdock itself was essentially the world's coolest self-storage facility and had been for some years. Goodyear had sold the Airdock and its surrounding facilities to Loral Aerospace in the late 80s, and Loral was still building electronics there until 96 or 97. But if you go to Google Maps and look at the Airdock, you'll see three buildings - one to the south, and two to the east - those were the old Goodyear Aviation facilities where the FG-1 and F2G were built. In the mid 80s, they would have been effectively empty, as for all practical purposes Goodyear had gotten out of the aerospace business some years before (I want to say late 60s). But the structures were there, and they had been kept in pretty reasonable shape. It wouldn't have taken much to get them up and running again once you got the machinery in place.

Mike,

Those were the one that had me curious. Poking around last night, I did see that Goodyear Aerospace was still a decent size defense contractor in the 1980s. Pinning down more than that was difficult. Goodyear Aerospace had their division HQ in Akron, but also had a facility in Arizona. Any contracts I could find were attributed to Goodyear Aerospace of Akron, OH, with no mention of where the work would be done.

Interestingly, I saw they built the Mk. 60 CAPTOR mine into the a least the mid-1980s. I just wish I could pin down where they built it.

[MikeKozlowski]

Goodyear is one I have first hand knowledge of, as I actually visited the facility a couple times in the early 90s. The Airdock itself was essentially the world's coolest self-storage facility and had been for some years. Goodyear had sold the Airdock and its surrounding facilities to Loral Aerospace in the late 80s, and Loral was still building electronics there until 96 or 97. But if you go to Google Maps and look at the Airdock, you'll see three buildings - one to the south, and two to the east - those were the old Goodyear Aviation facilities where the FG-1 and F2G were built. In the mid 80s, they would have been effectively empty, as for all practical purposes Goodyear had gotten out of the aerospace business some years before (I want to say late 60s). But the structures were there, and they had been kept in pretty reasonable shape. It wouldn't have taken much to get them up and running again once you got the machinery in place.

Mike,

Those were the one that had me curious. Poking around last night, I did see that Goodyear Aerospace was still a decent size defense contractor in the 1980s. Pinning down more than that was difficult. Goodyear Aerospace had their division HQ in Akron, but also had a facility in Arizona. Any contracts I could find were attributed to Goodyear Aerospace of Akron, OH, with no mention of where the work would be done.

Interestingly, I saw they built the Mk. 60 CAPTOR mine into the a least the mid-1980s. I just wish I could pin down where they built it.

James,

Let me see what I can dig up when i get home. I know some components of SUBROC were built in Akron, but given the way the area was built up by the 80s, CAPTOR seems pretty unlikely - that kind of warhead running around in what was by then a substantially residential area would not have gone over well. I do know that until the late 30s, the area around the Airdock and what's now Akron Fulton Airport was actually considered somewhat in the country.

Mike

[MikeKozlowski]

James,

No joy on figuring out where CAPTOR was made. In retrospect it actually could have been either Akron or Phoenix; there was no necessity to put a live round in the mine until it got to the Naval Ammunition Depot, wherever that might be.

Mike

[Wolfman]

Assuming this would be OOC: Stuart and I talked about several facilities that were still in existence at the time of the invasion:

*Curtiss Wright Buffalo NY
*Bell Buffalo NY
*Brewster Warminster PA
*Martin Cleveland OH (Later Great Lakes, and still in one piece today)
*Naval Aircraft Factory Philadelphia NS PA
*Goodyear Airdock Akron OH

OOC:
Re. Warminster: Does anyone have a guess how much space the Naval Air Development Center was already taking up at Warminster?

Re. Naval Aircraft Factory Philadelphia : A few questions/thoughts.
1) Since it's on the grounds of Philadelphia NSY / NS Philadelphia, was anyone else at the shipyard / naval space already using that space?
2) While technically still there at the time, the runway does not appear usable given how the base built up. So if they did move an aircraft line there, the finished aircraft would have to be towed or barged to Philadelphia International Airport.

Re. Goodyear: What, if anything, was Goodyear Aerospace doing at the site during this period?

James,

I should have clarified on those.

NAF Philly and Brewster Warminster could at worst be used for fairly good sized aircraft sections (wings, fuselages, etc) that could then be transported to other locations for final assembly.

Goodyear is one I have first hand knowledge of, as I actually visited the facility a couple times in the early 90s. The Airdock itself was essentially the world's coolest self-storage facility and had been for some years. Goodyear had sold the Airdock and its surrounding facilities to Loral Aerospace in the late 80s, and Loral was still building electronics there until 96 or 97. But if you go to Google Maps and look at the Airdock, you'll see three buildings - one to the south, and two to the east - those were the old Goodyear Aviation facilities where the FG-1 and F2G were built. In the mid 80s, they would have been effectively empty, as for all practical purposes Goodyear had gotten out of the aerospace business some years before (I want to say late 60s). But the structures were there, and they had been kept in pretty reasonable shape. It wouldn't have taken much to get them up and running again once you got the machinery in place.

Mike

Postwar, the NAF is used to support the Mil and Kamov helicopters in the Reparations Fleet…

[MikeKozlowski]

OOC:
Re. Warminster: Does anyone have a guess how much space the Naval Air Development Center was already taking up at Warminster?

Re. Naval Aircraft Factory Philadelphia : A few questions/thoughts.
1) Since it's on the grounds of Philadelphia NSY / NS Philadelphia, was anyone else at the shipyard / naval space already using that space?
2) While technically still there at the time, the runway does not appear usable given how the base built up. So if they did move an aircraft line there, the finished aircraft would have to be towed or barged to Philadelphia International Airport.

Re. Goodyear: What, if anything, was Goodyear Aerospace doing at the site during this period?

James,

I should have clarified on those.

NAF Philly and Brewster Warminster could at worst be used for fairly good sized aircraft sections (wings, fuselages, etc) that could then be transported to other locations for final assembly.

Goodyear is one I have first hand knowledge of, as I actually visited the facility a couple times in the early 90s. The Airdock itself was essentially the world's coolest self-storage facility and had been for some years. Goodyear had sold the Airdock and its surrounding facilities to Loral Aerospace in the late 80s, and Loral was still building electronics there until 96 or 97. But if you go to Google Maps and look at the Airdock, you'll see three buildings - one to the south, and two to the east - those were the old Goodyear Aviation facilities where the FG-1 and F2G were built. In the mid 80s, they would have been effectively empty, as for all practical purposes Goodyear had gotten out of the aerospace business some years before (I want to say late 60s). But the structures were there, and they had been kept in pretty reasonable shape. It wouldn't have taken much to get them up and running again once you got the machinery in place.

Mike

Postwar, the NAF is used to support the Mil and Kamov helicopters in the Reparations Fleet…

Wolfman,

Oh, I LIKE that.

Mike

[jemhouston]

Rockwell Collins was in the process of moving line out of Cedar Rapids, Iowa to Dallas and Florida.

Among other things, they made the flight display instruments for Shuttle, 707 / C-135 family. If you remember the original Battlestar Galactica shots of the Viper's control panel, they were made in Cedar Rapids.

I suspect they moved what they could back to Cedar Rapids. I can't remember what else they moved south.

BTW I worked in the Cedar Rapids plant from 1977 to 1983.

[Bernard Woolley]

We did establish a while back that the AV-8B line went to Canada, where it was used to build what were in effect Canadian GR.5s. McDD did also send materials to the U.K. to allow BAe to make all of the components of the GR.5 in country.

[Wolfman]

James,

I should have clarified on those.

NAF Philly and Brewster Warminster could at worst be used for fairly good sized aircraft sections (wings, fuselages, etc) that could then be transported to other locations for final assembly.

Goodyear is one I have first hand knowledge of, as I actually visited the facility a couple times in the early 90s. The Airdock itself was essentially the world's coolest self-storage facility and had been for some years. Goodyear had sold the Airdock and its surrounding facilities to Loral Aerospace in the late 80s, and Loral was still building electronics there until 96 or 97. But if you go to Google Maps and look at the Airdock, you'll see three buildings - one to the south, and two to the east - those were the old Goodyear Aviation facilities where the FG-1 and F2G were built. In the mid 80s, they would have been effectively empty, as for all practical purposes Goodyear had gotten out of the aerospace business some years before (I want to say late 60s). But the structures were there, and they had been kept in pretty reasonable shape. It wouldn't have taken much to get them up and running again once you got the machinery in place.

Mike

Postwar, the NAF is used to support the Mil and Kamov helicopters in the Reparations Fleet…

Wolfman,

Oh, I LIKE that.

Mike

Primarily because some of those enter American military service (the Coast Guard is actually rather fond of the HIP and the HAZE-C, they use the Mil products up in Alaska)…

[Matt Wiser]

We did establish a while back that the AV-8B line went to Canada, where it was used to build what were in effect Canadian GR.5s. McDD did also send materials to the U.K. to allow BAe to make all of the components of the GR.5 in country.

That we did. Though we never did fully resolve the Harrier issue for the USMC (The RAG and two VMA Squadrons had reequipped with the B, and a third was working though the transition in Sep '85).

[Poohbah]

We did establish a while back that the AV-8B line went to Canada, where it was used to build what were in effect Canadian GR.5s. McDD did also send materials to the U.K. to allow BAe to make all of the components of the GR.5 in country.

That we did. Though we never did fully resolve the Harrier issue for the USMC (The RAG and two VMA Squadrons had reequipped with the B, and a third was working though the transition in Sep '85).

Harrier to Harrier transition was one thing. The Cherry Point VMAT (203) was the Harrier RAG, Yuma (VMAT-102) still flew the Skyhawk. 513 and 542 at Yuma went from A to B in triple time because of the A having a horrible attrition rate.

Skyhawk to Harrier transition came to a crashing halt because the United States was exactly the wrong theater for any flavor of Harrier.

[TheMann]

Skyhawk to Harrier transition came to a crashing halt because the United States was exactly the wrong theater for any flavor of Harrier.

I dunno if I'd go THAT far. The hot and high regions, Okay you have a point there, but I seem to remember seeing them in East Texas a few times and they did just fine there. They never flew without top cover mind you, but the Harrier wasn't that bad of a ship for CAS. No worse than a Skyhawk I'd imagine.

[James1978]

@ AV-8A/C Stuff

Some information I had filed away from previous times we've had this conversation . . .

102 AV-8A Built
- 38 AV-8A Lost through September 1985
- 47 Conversions to AV-8C
= 17 AV-8A in September 1985

8 TAV-8A Built
- 2 TAV-8A Lost through September 1985

47 AV-8C Built (CLIOP)
- 11 Lost through September 1985
= 36 AV-8C in September 1985

53 AV-8A/C were theoretically available in September 1985. They were divided among a single training squadron and two or three operational squadrons.
As far as I can tell, no AV-8A/C were deployed to Okinawa or with an MAU in September 1985. So all should have been in CONUS.

VMAT-203:
VMA-231: AV-8B from September 1985. That date in no way implies IOC, let along FOC.
VMA-542: AV-8A/C until April 1986
VMA-513: AV-8A/C until October 1987

Going off of memory, Poobah has feelings on the matter of their survivability in the field given the nature of the ground war. Hopefully he'll refresh our memories. I do recall he had grave doubts about AV-8Bs being combat capable early in the war.

Others had memories of the Harries going to see on LPH/LHA as part of those ships operating in the Sea Control role.
Two issues there:
1) When everything including the kitchen sink is being thrown in to try to slow down the Red Horde, how many of those 53 AV-8A/C even made it to D+10? If the fleet is largely wiped out and most Marines never see an AV-8, but they do see plenty of Marine A-4s and later A-7s, just who the hell is really clamoring for the AV-8B?
2) If they are off playing Sea Control with the Navy, they aren't supporting marines on the ground. That's not likely to leave a good taste with most of the Corps.

Related to #1 above, the Kola Raid is in May 1987. Any survivors are likely to go on that raid because if they don't, what the hell are we doing spending resources supporting the things if they aren't used to support Marines during an amphibious assault?

Oh, the TAV-8B first flight was 21 October 1986 @.

[Matryoshka]

OOC:
ISTR there were also comments (including by Stuart himself) to the effect that compared to the A-4s and A-7s, the early-model Harriers just didn’t deliver sufficient payload-per-sortie (‘put enough warheads on foreheads’) to justify their own production-costs during a shooting war on CONUS soil. In addition to their being maintenance-intensive, training-intensive, and just all-around finicky aircraft that paid far too much for their VTOL capability... well, IRL continued development led to the design maturing into the AV-8B ‘Harrier II’, which was a much more capable warplane, but IINM, in the RD+20 timeline, the production space was given over to other, more cost-efficient types and that R&D never got a chance to happen.

[Wolfman]

The Harrier II was barely operational (in terms of units) when WWIII kicked off.

[Poohbah]

The Harrier II was barely operational (in terms of units) when WWIII kicked off.

The only operational unit was VMAT-203. 231's first Harrier II was at the factory on Day One, getting handed over to the ferry pilot.

[Poohbah]

@ AV-8A/C Stuff

Some information I had filed away from previous times we've had this conversation . . .

102 AV-8A Built
- 38 AV-8A Lost through September 1985
- 47 Conversions to AV-8C
= 17 AV-8A in September 1985

8 TAV-8A Built
- 2 TAV-8A Lost through September 1985

47 AV-8C Built (CLIOP)
- 11 Lost through September 1985
= 36 AV-8C in September 1985

53 AV-8A/C were theoretically available in September 1985. They were divided among a single training squadron and two or three operational squadrons.
As far as I can tell, no AV-8A/C were deployed to Okinawa or with an MAU in September 1985. So all should have been in CONUS.

VMAT-203:
VMA-231: AV-8B from September 1985. That date in no way implies IOC, let along FOC.
VMA-542: AV-8A/C until April 1986
VMA-513: AV-8A/C until October 1987

Going off of memory, Poobah has feelings on the matter of their survivability in the field given the nature of the ground war. Hopefully he'll refresh our memories. I do recall he had grave doubts about AV-8Bs being combat capable early in the war.

Others had memories of the Harries going to see on LPH/LHA as part of those ships operating in the Sea Control role.
Two issues there:
1) When everything including the kitchen sink is being thrown in to try to slow down the Red Horde, how many of those 53 AV-8A/C even made it to D+10? If the fleet is largely wiped out and most Marines never see an AV-8, but they do see plenty of Marine A-4s and later A-7s, just who the hell is really clamoring for the AV-8B?
2) If they are off playing Sea Control with the Navy, they aren't supporting marines on the ground. That's not likely to leave a good taste with most of the Corps.

Related to #1 above, the Kola Raid is in May 1987. Any survivors are likely to go on that raid because if they don't, what the hell are we doing spending resources supporting the things if they aren't used to support Marines during an amphibious assault?

Oh, the TAV-8B first flight was 21 October 1986 @.

The Harrier had several problems for a high intensity war in 1985. It's a maintenance intensive aircraft, not just in terms of organizational maintenance man-hours per flight hour, but also due to the additional intermediate maintenance assets required for the whole "operate from bare bones FARPs" concept.

Second problem: World War III had some of the lowest troop densities ever recorded in warfare. You had armies much smaller than the Wehrmacht and the Red Army from Big Mistake 2, but they were covering a much wider front. Those neat front lines you saw in the newspapers were polite fictions (and 5th Marine Division's reputation really got started when the command team started considering that as a feature and not a bug). Those FARPs were extremely vulnerable to enemy SOF, shoot-and-scoot artillery raids, or that American regiment trying to hold a divisional frontage having a bad day.

Third problem: range and payload. The sheer breadth and depth of the front would make the early Harriers marginal assets even on Day One, and even more so after that due to the problems outlined above. By the time the Highway War is in full swing, any surviving aircraft are considered to be not carrying enough of the burden to be worth their ration strength.

Fourth problem in the Southwest US: the Harrier was the bastard stepchild of Third Marine Air Wing. The Pacific-facing mission of III MAF and I MAF meant that the Harrier was not going to play except from LPH/LHA decks.

Their supporting group (MAG-13) was split between El Toro (Group HQ, with Skyhawks and Intruders), and Det Alfa at MCAS Yuma (supporting 513 and 542). The Harrier MOS folks had no choice; to Yuma they went. Everyone else resented being there, especially after the border closed so they couldn't visit San Luis Rio Colorado anymore. Nobody was happy. Phoenix was barely in limits on a 72-hour libbo, and that was about the best one could do. By comparison, El Toro was in Orange County, CA, and Marines there had plenty of entertainment. It got to the point where MAG-13 was seriously considering creating additional detachment assignments and rotating them through Yuma every six months.

All of these factors led to Det Alfa delivering an indifferent performance during the first month of the war, aside from their non-Harrier troops holding off the Mexican Army at the base perimeter on Day One. (The first US flag on enemy territory in WW3 was raised over San Luis Rio Colorado on Day One by Marines of Headquarters and Headquarters Squadron Detachment Alfa, Marine Air Group 13.)

[Matt Wiser]

The Navy's still going to want to have Harriers for the SCS mission (i.e. Killing Bear-Ds while out of range of land-based fighter cover). Either reform VSF squadrons or get Marines to go to sea in Bs.

[Johnnie Lyle]

The Navy's still going to want to have Harriers for the SCS mission (i.e. Killing Bear-Ds while out of range of land-based fighter cover). Either reform VSF squadrons or get Marines to go to sea in Bs.

It’s most likely going to be the former. Both the Marines and the Air Force are going to want Marine aviation supporting Marine divisions.