Let’s look if they are around:
- 1st Cheshires were in the Berlin Bde, and dealt with in this chapter
- 1st Royal Green Jackets with 19th Infantry Bde of 4 AD
- 3rd Worcester and Sherwood Foresters is a TA bttn with 7 AD and 1st is with British Support Command
- 1st Queen’s with 1st Bde UKMF
- 1st Hampshires with 1st Bde UKMF
- 3rd QOH is a TA bttn in LOC
- No other Gordons or King’s
Stripping separate battalions to support 3 frontline units is tenuous.
What it goes to show is that the prewar nomenclature was all over the place; and the prewar deployment planning was a bit similar.
Prewar British Regular Infantry Regiments & Battalions list:
Irish Guards: 1st 2ID
Grenadier Guards: 1st 3AD, 2nd London
Scots Guards: 1st 3AD, 2nd London
Coldstream Guards: 1st London, 2nd 4AD
Welsh Guards: 1st London, 1st also in Canada
Queen's: 1st UKMF, 2nd Eastern District, 3rd Berlin
Light Infantry: 1st Cyprus, 2nd UKMF/Bosnia, 3rd AD
RGJ: 1st 4AD, 2nd 5ABN Bde, 3rd Southern District
W&SF: 1st British Support Command, 2nd Norn
Cheshires: 1st Berlin, 2nd Norn
Royal Regiment of Fusiliers: 1st 1AD, 2nd 2ID
Royal Anglian: 1st Cyprus, 3rd 4AD
Royal Hampshires: 1st UKMF, 2nd Southern District
King's: 1st Norn
Gloucesters: 1st Berlin
RR Wales: 1st Berlin
Black Watch: 1st 1AD
DofE RR: 1st 1AD
Green Howards: 1st 1AD
KO Border: 1st 1AD
Argyll & Sutherlands: 1st 2ID
Queen's Lancashire: 1st 3AD
RWF: 1st 3AD
DOW: 1st 3AD
Staffordshire: 1st 3AD
KOSB: 1st 4AD
RHF: 1st 4AD
Royal Scots: 1st 4AD
D&D: 1st UKMF
Gordons: 1st Scotland District
QOH: 1st Norn
Royal Irish: 1st Kuwait
2nd KEVII Own Gurkhas: 1st 5ID, 2nd 5ID
6th QE Own Gurkhas: 1st UKMF/Bosnia, 2nd 5ABN Bde
7th DofE Own Gurkhas: 1st Brunei
10th PM Own Gurkhas: 1st 5ID
1 Para, 2 Para, 3 Para
Thoughts:
- Royal Anglian not having a 2nd Battalion, but a 3rd seems a bit out, as 2nd Royal Anglian was historically in 22 Armoured Bde in 1989
- 1st Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire seems to be missing, historically being in 24 Bde in 1989
- 3rd Royal Regiment of Fusiliers is missing, but active in @ until 1992/Options for Change
- Given the PoD in 1989, it isn't completely outside of the realms of possibility to postulate some increase in the number of regular infantry battalions over the next 16 years
- Total battalions come to 55, or 56 if the double up for the Welsh Guards is deliberate, which it probably isn't.
- In 1989, counting the Paras and Gurkhas, it came to 57.
- Total for 2005 *should* therefore be 58 or 59, which whilst seemingly initially off a bit, can possibly work out, given the presence of 7 former UDR battalions in 2005 vs 9 in 1989
- Given the degree of change, and a very clearly signposted increase in both military spending and the size of forces, several possibilities open up:
a.) Do nothing! Change is for the armies of other countries, not Britain, silly. Maintain the 55/58 battalion force of 1989 vintage, with slight rebadging/renaming of some Irish units
b.) Increase the total to late 1960s levels on a very case by case basis. This could take the form of reactivating 4th Light Infantry (historically disbanded 1969), 4th Queen's Regiment (historically disbanded in 1973), 4th Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (disbanded 1969), 4th Royal Anglians (disbanded 1975), in addition to the 2nd Irish Guards and 2nd Welsh Guards (in suspended animation since 1948)
c.) Consider the 2nd/7th Gurkha Rifles (extant 1982-1987), even in just a company strength
d.) From that level of 64 Regular battalions, consider shifting the 1st Battalions of the London Regiment and the Wessex Regiment to the Regular Army from TA only regiments. That effectively puts the Army back on the level of the pre 1957 Army, albeit under different names, regiments and groupings
e.) Of all the 19 single battalion regiments, perhaps the King's Regiment would be best placed to have an additional or 2nd Battalion raised, considering its recruiting pool encompasses Liverpool and Manchester
That gets the nominal TLW British Regular Army to 68 battalions. Whilst there were references to scraping the bottom of the barrel in latter WW3 Round 1 chapters, including the forces on Cyprus being the possible strategic reserve, this can nominally be handwaved with the additional battalions being on a Home Defence/Home Forces establishment.
That gets the basis for an extra few brigades 4-6 months after M-Day, but in what vehicles and with what stocks? That is the lovely matter of friction.
Let us now consider the TLW TA:
TLW: 70 TA (42 Europe, 26 Home, 2 Rest of the World) + 20 HSF establishment battalions
1989: 50 TA (41 + 9 UDR)
This is where a great deal of the force increase and investment has gone, which is understandable, but at the same time a bit 'interesting'. In a world of 'front line first' and focus upon increasing the teeth of forces, as reflected in multiple chapters of the NATO mobilisation book that I went and bought before realising it was free online, boosting home defence forces and reserves whilst not seemingly touching a skerrick of the Regular Army nor even continuing production of Challenger 2 and Warrior at a low Cold War peacetime rate is a priority that wouldn't be universally considered as logical.
Be that as it may, as this is about pre TLW WW3, or discussion points that may have had some bearing 21 years ago.
What can be done now?
1.) Increasing the relative size of the 'Regular Army' and Territorial Army and 'New Army', or however Bernard wishes to term the new National Service units
2.) Working out what new battalions would be raised
3.) How are these new forces armed and equipped?
For (1), I'd suggest going for the 68 Regular and 72 TA, with any increases to the latter coming from additional manpower 'splitting up' 2 of the 6 TA and 1 HSF conjoined battalions, such as 4/5 or 8/9.
For (2), one answer would be the part of the first couple of tranches going to 2nd battalions of the 18 + 2 single battalion Regular Army regiments first of all (20), then 29 further service/New Army battalions and an additional Parachute battalion. Not all of these would be destined for frontline role necessarily, but would augment and relieve relevant TA and remaining prewar Regular units from the Home Defence and LOC defence roles
From there, split up the remaining 5 TA/HSF battalions and add a few more London and Wessex Regiment battalions to get to ~ 60.
Gee, that's a lot!
Yes, suspicious straw voice, it is. Consider, though, that this is World War 3, and a situation with conscription and a seemingly extended conflict. If not now, then when?
(3) With increasing difficulty, but with the caveat that Home Establishment and HSF PBI is the least egregious of new units to get out and about, particularly compared with the difficulties of armoured infantry, tanks and armoured recce.
General Discussion thread.
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
I've now edited in a bit of a deep dive in my post immediately above, having taken advantage of a blue moon day off to go through the TLW and historical 1989 orbats forensically.
As mentioned above, infantry is what I've looked at initially as there are relatively fewer bottlenecks in equipment, supply and training compared to artillery, armour, engineers and other branches of the Army.
Inspired by the brief few sentences in Bernard's chapter here, hopefully it presents a little food for thought.
As mentioned above, infantry is what I've looked at initially as there are relatively fewer bottlenecks in equipment, supply and training compared to artillery, armour, engineers and other branches of the Army.
Inspired by the brief few sentences in Bernard's chapter here, hopefully it presents a little food for thought.
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Paul Nuttall
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Re: General Discussion thread.
OK so we now have an 'After the Last War' so what is the situation with regards to the oil and gas installations and cable network in the North Sea?
I assume the rigs were evacuated but they are still likely targets for Soviet missiles and the pipelines targets for undersea attack.
How badly have the North Sea installations been affected?
I assume the rigs were evacuated but they are still likely targets for Soviet missiles and the pipelines targets for undersea attack.
How badly have the North Sea installations been affected?
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Simon,
Where do I start?
I have been working with Bernard on revamping the British Army ORBAT, we have been trying to reconcile some things and do some best “guesses”
What I mean is, as I get more files from the 1980’s early 90’s it seems things that we thought were going to happen before IRL Wall Fall, changed as things progressed.
For instance the plan for 48 Gurkha Inf Bde after the handover in Hong Kong was for it to return to the UK and be part of what would be a Strategic Reserve Div (1 IB, 3 Cdo, 5 Abn) however o recently received a file from the early 1990’s that stated it would go to BAOR under 2 ID to replace 24 Airmobile (which would be a NORTHAG asset)
Along this line the British had pledged to increase their force structure committed to the CF to 13 Bde (this was in 1987). Seven Bdes plus the PRG in the FEBA ( 1 & 4 AD) three Bdes with 3 AD and three Bdes with 2 ID PLUS 24 Airmobile, again as a NORTHAG asset.
I have also found a plan for the Inf called “Queen’s Knight” which basically would try to have a set number of Bns in each Div of Inf in certain roles (the Arms Plot would continue) which meant that each Div of Inf would have two Bns in Warrior except for the Queen’s Div which would have three (because they had three large regiments and it was thought they could better handle the Armd Inf Manning Increment)
Further there was discussion of making the Household Cavalry Regiments permanently Armd Recce so they did not have to retrain constantly between Armd & Armd Recce roles.
In addition the plan was for UKMF to receive, in the early 90’s, a full Type 43 Armd Regt (its fourth Sqn would be Armd Recce)
Finally (at least for this reply) you are correct in that in 1989 there were 55 Inf Bns, 50 “British” and 5 Gurkha. The Gurkhas were set to reduce to four Bns in 1997, however to run the Arms Plot it was stated the Inf needed a minimum of 57 Bns. The only was, at the time, this could be achieved was having at least 7 Gurkha Bns (British Infantry as a whole was over a 1,000 men short)
I can go into more detail if you have specific questions
Where do I start?
I have been working with Bernard on revamping the British Army ORBAT, we have been trying to reconcile some things and do some best “guesses”
What I mean is, as I get more files from the 1980’s early 90’s it seems things that we thought were going to happen before IRL Wall Fall, changed as things progressed.
For instance the plan for 48 Gurkha Inf Bde after the handover in Hong Kong was for it to return to the UK and be part of what would be a Strategic Reserve Div (1 IB, 3 Cdo, 5 Abn) however o recently received a file from the early 1990’s that stated it would go to BAOR under 2 ID to replace 24 Airmobile (which would be a NORTHAG asset)
Along this line the British had pledged to increase their force structure committed to the CF to 13 Bde (this was in 1987). Seven Bdes plus the PRG in the FEBA ( 1 & 4 AD) three Bdes with 3 AD and three Bdes with 2 ID PLUS 24 Airmobile, again as a NORTHAG asset.
I have also found a plan for the Inf called “Queen’s Knight” which basically would try to have a set number of Bns in each Div of Inf in certain roles (the Arms Plot would continue) which meant that each Div of Inf would have two Bns in Warrior except for the Queen’s Div which would have three (because they had three large regiments and it was thought they could better handle the Armd Inf Manning Increment)
Further there was discussion of making the Household Cavalry Regiments permanently Armd Recce so they did not have to retrain constantly between Armd & Armd Recce roles.
In addition the plan was for UKMF to receive, in the early 90’s, a full Type 43 Armd Regt (its fourth Sqn would be Armd Recce)
Finally (at least for this reply) you are correct in that in 1989 there were 55 Inf Bns, 50 “British” and 5 Gurkha. The Gurkhas were set to reduce to four Bns in 1997, however to run the Arms Plot it was stated the Inf needed a minimum of 57 Bns. The only was, at the time, this could be achieved was having at least 7 Gurkha Bns (British Infantry as a whole was over a 1,000 men short)
I can go into more detail if you have specific questions
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Further food for thought…..
If we were to add additional British Inf
My best guess is the following
1 Cameronians, the Scottish Div as a whole was the best recruited in 1989
1 York & Lancaster, King’s Div was the next best recruited
3 Grenadier Guards, Inkerman Coy was still extant to represent them as even though they were numbered 3rd their lineage is the oldest.
As for the TA
The TA ORBAT Review envisioned six additional Bns to be formed in the early 1990’s
the Highland and Lowland Volunteers each getting an additional Bn so each regiment has one
R Anglians getting an additional Bn
The Wessex Regiment expanding so the Glosters, R Hants & DERR each getting a TA Bn
8 QF being split to form two “London”Bns
5 RRF being split into a Lancashire (5 RRF) and a Warwickshire (7 RRF) Bn
Bernard envisions these 47 TA Bns being Field Force units
Meanwhile the HSF Coys (which had plans of being expanded beyond the 47 extant) serving as “ command cadres” for Reservist Coys forming on TTW
If we were to add additional British Inf
My best guess is the following
1 Cameronians, the Scottish Div as a whole was the best recruited in 1989
1 York & Lancaster, King’s Div was the next best recruited
3 Grenadier Guards, Inkerman Coy was still extant to represent them as even though they were numbered 3rd their lineage is the oldest.
As for the TA
The TA ORBAT Review envisioned six additional Bns to be formed in the early 1990’s
the Highland and Lowland Volunteers each getting an additional Bn so each regiment has one
R Anglians getting an additional Bn
The Wessex Regiment expanding so the Glosters, R Hants & DERR each getting a TA Bn
8 QF being split to form two “London”Bns
5 RRF being split into a Lancashire (5 RRF) and a Warwickshire (7 RRF) Bn
Bernard envisions these 47 TA Bns being Field Force units
Meanwhile the HSF Coys (which had plans of being expanded beyond the 47 extant) serving as “ command cadres” for Reservist Coys forming on TTW
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Simon Darkshade
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- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Louie,
Thank you for the reply.
Your first post is all extremely interesting historical information. It is also all OTL, or of historical interest value after the TLW PoD.
The second is of more potential use in that it identifies other units that could be raised for a potential force increase.
The current TLW prewar orbat, as it stands, and according to my count, is missing:
- 2nd Royal Anglian
- 1st Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire
- 3rd Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
They all appeared in the 1989 count. TLW also has 55 battalions, so the above seem to have slipped through the cracks in the process of some of the 1990s name changes.
The main substance of my post and point was what *could* be changed.
The tidbit you’ve shared about the Arms Plot requiring at least 57 battalions gives some scope for a bit of that change.
To sum up:
1.) To have the RAF, RN and TA all expand, but the Regular Army remain at 55 battalions as if there were a legislative cap on it seems a little inconsistent;
2.) There are Options for Change (if we forgive the pun) even as I realise the burden of intertia;
3.) A British Army with a renewed emphasis on conventional warfare, increases budgets and what is described as a general increase not just in forces, but in the military role in society, does seem like one where force increase would not be seen as anathema and send men, women and children running screaming into the streets;
4.) The pathway to not having to fiddle around with the mainline story written over the last 22+ years is simply to say these were Home Defence battalions;
5.) Now that things are changing, they could be factored in. Now that conscription is in place, there will likely be new/old units any old how;
6.) PBI is easier to field than Warrior armoured infantry or REs etc
Thank you for the reply.
Your first post is all extremely interesting historical information. It is also all OTL, or of historical interest value after the TLW PoD.
The second is of more potential use in that it identifies other units that could be raised for a potential force increase.
The current TLW prewar orbat, as it stands, and according to my count, is missing:
- 2nd Royal Anglian
- 1st Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire
- 3rd Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
They all appeared in the 1989 count. TLW also has 55 battalions, so the above seem to have slipped through the cracks in the process of some of the 1990s name changes.
The main substance of my post and point was what *could* be changed.
The tidbit you’ve shared about the Arms Plot requiring at least 57 battalions gives some scope for a bit of that change.
To sum up:
1.) To have the RAF, RN and TA all expand, but the Regular Army remain at 55 battalions as if there were a legislative cap on it seems a little inconsistent;
2.) There are Options for Change (if we forgive the pun) even as I realise the burden of intertia;
3.) A British Army with a renewed emphasis on conventional warfare, increases budgets and what is described as a general increase not just in forces, but in the military role in society, does seem like one where force increase would not be seen as anathema and send men, women and children running screaming into the streets;
4.) The pathway to not having to fiddle around with the mainline story written over the last 22+ years is simply to say these were Home Defence battalions;
5.) Now that things are changing, they could be factored in. Now that conscription is in place, there will likely be new/old units any old how;
6.) PBI is easier to field than Warrior armoured infantry or REs etc
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Simon,
I do see your point but based on IRL, before anymore Regular Army Inf Bns would be formed I think the first priority would be to get all the current (50 British) Bns up to at least Peace Establishment.
Second would be to form fourth rifle Coys along with re-establishing Assault Pioneer Pls in Type A Bns. Both of these items were expressly mentioned by all the Commanders of BAOR through the 1980s.
I do see your point but based on IRL, before anymore Regular Army Inf Bns would be formed I think the first priority would be to get all the current (50 British) Bns up to at least Peace Establishment.
Second would be to form fourth rifle Coys along with re-establishing Assault Pioneer Pls in Type A Bns. Both of these items were expressly mentioned by all the Commanders of BAOR through the 1980s.
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Simon Darkshade
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Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
What numbers would be approximately required for each of those?
On the first, a mechanised battalion was 760 (724 OR + 36 Officers), 789 for armoured infantry (750 OR + 39 officers) and 621 for a light role battalion from my notes. If the infantry was ~1000 men short, that could be achieved over 4-5 years without going overboard.
On the second, that would roughly work out to an extra 6000 men for the 4th rifle companies and 900 for the assault pioneers.
2 would work out to be more men and more cost than re-established battalions, and has not been done, so far as the Orbat and story have indicated ; the TOEs are all 3 companies of 3 platoons, unless that is to be thrown out. I’d suggest that might be something for Reserves during TTW; there is a lot on it on the link I popped up in General Discussion that was drowned by a Dutchman.
Simply increasing the infantry by 1000 men to get to peacetime establishment, or even by 1900 to get the assault pioneers as well does come under Option A (Do Nothing) in my book.
A dogged position against land force increases (regular and reserve) or alterations hasn’t been anything new with regard to Britain or Canada in discussions over the last half a dozen years. So it goes, and it isn’t my story or project, so I’ll simply conclude with:
If not now, or in 1989-2005, then when would there possibly be any circumstances where change would occur? If a Third World War and reintroduced conscription doesn’t change things from the holy pattern of 1989, then I’m not sure anything would.
I have seen that the orbat has been updated to D+100, and it might be an opportunity to fix up a couple of things:
- The 1st Welsh Guards are mentioned twice in Canada and London, in different configurations. The Canadian based troops did then deploy elsewhere in TLW Round 1
- In light of everything, the proposals put in COGRAM are unlikely, but it might be worth considering
- It might be worth slotting in 2nd Royal Anglians, 3rd Royal Fusiliers and 1st Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire
- I think that the last has got mixed up somewhere along the way in the last 20+ years with the Leeds Rifles, a TA bttn of the same regiment
- Alternately, those 3 battalions could have been the only ones chopped, but that creates more twisting and turning for what is likely just a creature of integrating the Regular Army and TA in one orbat without having facility for different coloured text or some such means of distinguishing between forces
- If, after 100 days of World War 3, three British regular battalions have to be held back in Northern Ireland, then something had messed up somewhere along the line
- If there is to be future change, the Regular Army Home Defence formations present an opportunity to be used for something new, and certainly not being cannibalised for BCRs when there are other options for that
On the first, a mechanised battalion was 760 (724 OR + 36 Officers), 789 for armoured infantry (750 OR + 39 officers) and 621 for a light role battalion from my notes. If the infantry was ~1000 men short, that could be achieved over 4-5 years without going overboard.
On the second, that would roughly work out to an extra 6000 men for the 4th rifle companies and 900 for the assault pioneers.
2 would work out to be more men and more cost than re-established battalions, and has not been done, so far as the Orbat and story have indicated ; the TOEs are all 3 companies of 3 platoons, unless that is to be thrown out. I’d suggest that might be something for Reserves during TTW; there is a lot on it on the link I popped up in General Discussion that was drowned by a Dutchman.
Simply increasing the infantry by 1000 men to get to peacetime establishment, or even by 1900 to get the assault pioneers as well does come under Option A (Do Nothing) in my book.
A dogged position against land force increases (regular and reserve) or alterations hasn’t been anything new with regard to Britain or Canada in discussions over the last half a dozen years. So it goes, and it isn’t my story or project, so I’ll simply conclude with:
If not now, or in 1989-2005, then when would there possibly be any circumstances where change would occur? If a Third World War and reintroduced conscription doesn’t change things from the holy pattern of 1989, then I’m not sure anything would.
I have seen that the orbat has been updated to D+100, and it might be an opportunity to fix up a couple of things:
- The 1st Welsh Guards are mentioned twice in Canada and London, in different configurations. The Canadian based troops did then deploy elsewhere in TLW Round 1
- In light of everything, the proposals put in COGRAM are unlikely, but it might be worth considering
- It might be worth slotting in 2nd Royal Anglians, 3rd Royal Fusiliers and 1st Prince of Wales's Own Regiment of Yorkshire
- I think that the last has got mixed up somewhere along the way in the last 20+ years with the Leeds Rifles, a TA bttn of the same regiment
- Alternately, those 3 battalions could have been the only ones chopped, but that creates more twisting and turning for what is likely just a creature of integrating the Regular Army and TA in one orbat without having facility for different coloured text or some such means of distinguishing between forces
- If, after 100 days of World War 3, three British regular battalions have to be held back in Northern Ireland, then something had messed up somewhere along the line
- If there is to be future change, the Regular Army Home Defence formations present an opportunity to be used for something new, and certainly not being cannibalised for BCRs when there are other options for that
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Simon,
I will post the cap-badge numbers(minus any attachments from RAMC, RAPC, ACC, etc) for each Bn and their role from 1989.
To get to the 57 Bns I have extra Gurkha Bns
Three with 48 Gurkha Inf Bde
One with 5 Abn Bde
One in Brunei
One in the ITO (IDB at Warminster with Coys at Brecon & Sandhurst, this was an IRL plan)
One available in the Arms Plot for everywhere but BAOR & N Ireland)
This is all subject to Bernard’s approval of my draft
Additionally I envisioned that the eighth Gurkha Bn (each Gurkha Regt having two Bns) was in the process, pre-war, of converting to artillery. IRL before the Malayan Emergency kicked off, the two Bns of the 7th Gurkhas were being retrained as artillery, 100 & 101 FD Regts, for 17 Gurkha Inf Div)
Also the three British Bns that are “missing” are accounted for in my draft.
I will post the cap-badge numbers(minus any attachments from RAMC, RAPC, ACC, etc) for each Bn and their role from 1989.
To get to the 57 Bns I have extra Gurkha Bns
Three with 48 Gurkha Inf Bde
One with 5 Abn Bde
One in Brunei
One in the ITO (IDB at Warminster with Coys at Brecon & Sandhurst, this was an IRL plan)
One available in the Arms Plot for everywhere but BAOR & N Ireland)
This is all subject to Bernard’s approval of my draft
Additionally I envisioned that the eighth Gurkha Bn (each Gurkha Regt having two Bns) was in the process, pre-war, of converting to artillery. IRL before the Malayan Emergency kicked off, the two Bns of the 7th Gurkhas were being retrained as artillery, 100 & 101 FD Regts, for 17 Gurkha Inf Div)
Also the three British Bns that are “missing” are accounted for in my draft.
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Just as a reminder, the Royal Navy and RAF also grew in TLWverse. Just keep that in mind when theorizing how much you can grow non-Gurkha infantry on top of the additional armor and artillery units in TLWverse in peacetime without conscription.
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
James,
Thank you! I was going to add that the cuts of the supporting Corps in Frontline First (1980’s) would also be reversed taking up additional manpower. Also the RA Regts in BAOR, each Bty was UE for eight guns, only 6 were manned on PE, I was going for them to be fully manned. So while Inf and RAC unit numbers did not go up, things like the aforementioned fourth rifle Coy, Assault Pioneer Pls, RA Regts (including additional regular FOOs), RE, RS, RLC units, etc received an uptick in PE manning.
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Simon Darkshade
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- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
That's what I predicted - the seemingly immutable state of affairs whereby the Regular Army is set in stone.
The additional armour and artillery units...aren't. They are TA units, or to use its 1967-1979 title for emphasis, the Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve.
As of D+100, the Army has 22 field, 8 heavy and 8 air defence regiments in the BAOR; 2 field regiments with 5th AD in Denmark; 2 field regiments in Norway; and 1 with UKMF Mk 2. There are 26 armoured regiments equipped with MBTs.
Prewar, there were 13 regular armoured regiments and 11 TA armoured regiments, and 12 air defence (5 regular and 7 TA), 21 field (12 regular and 9 TA) and 8 heavy regiments (4 regular and 4 TA).
In 1989, there were 14 field regiments (12 regular, 2 TA), 3 heavy regiments + 1 missile regiment and 8 air defence regiments (4 regular, 4 TA ) + 6 AD batteries and 13 regular armoured regiments (4th/7th, 15th/19th, 5th DG, B&R, 3RTR, 14/20, 17/21, 1RTR, QOH, 4RTR, 2RTR, RSDG, RH)
The total TLW Regular Army increases amount to 1 air defence regiment, which was likely grouped from the independent Air Defence batteries. A reasonable interpretation wouldn't view that as a Regular Army increase, but a consolidation of existing forces.
The TA has increased markedly by 7 field regiments, 4 heavy regiments and 3 air defence regiments for the Artillery and 11 armoured regiments for the RAC. Based on approximate manpower requirements, that is 6050 for the armoured units and 6720 for the artillery, on top of ~ 12,000 for the additional 20 odd TA infantry battalions. Additional supporting units and the 20 HSF battalions will likely take the TA up from 76,661 in 1989 or even the 90,000 outlined for 1990 in DEFE 70/1844 Home Defence Reinforcements and Reserves, linked in my post here: viewtopic.php?t=361&start=140
Looking at those numbers, there isn't going to be much change out of 125,000 men in the TA, which puts it around 1956 levels.
RAF
The TLW RAF on the other hand has 25 tactical fighter squadrons at home and 11 in RAFG, plus 13 Royal Auxiliary Air Force squadrons, compared to 1989's 21 at home and 12 in RAFG. 3 squadrons over 16 years isn't breaking the bank by any stretch of the imagination.
It isn't the RAF.
RN
The Royal Navy's expansion in TLW is pretty unprecedented in peacetime, going to 3 + 2 carriers, 18 + 4 SSN, 10 + 2 cruisers, 23 + 4 destroyers, 42 frigates and 18 + 10 corvettes from 3 carriers, 16 + 2 SSN, 13 destroyers and 29 + 7 frigates.
No eyelids have been batted or even fluttered at the RN increase.
Yet if I mention the possibility of 4-6 Regular Army battalions over 16 years, you'd think I've interrupted the Coronation to give a verbal advertisement for Raid Shadow Legends.
What numbers would be necessary? Between 2400 to 3600 men.
The manpower is there, given British unemployment rates aren't going to be extremely different over 1989-2005.
Take 1997, for example, lying nicely in the middle of the 16 year period.
British Population ~58,307,320. Males 20-24 ~ 1.7 million, 25-29 2.1 million and 30-34 2.35 million. Unemployment rate was 6.9%, and total was just under 2 million.
A battalion worth of men translates to 1 in 10,500 adult men alone.
Total in HM Armed Forces is likely to be 60,000-70,000 for the RN, 100,000 for the RAF and 155,000-160,000 for the Army, plus 90,000-100,000 TA, 12,000-15,000 RAF and 32,000 RN. Round up the reserves to 150,000 and the regular forces to 320,000-330,000 and the total is 470,000-480,000.
1996/97 @ British Army recruiting was 15,522 and 1997/98 was 15,379. That is likely to be a tad higher here with greater budgets and the higher social cachet of defence and arms.
The cost isn't significant, nor are the equipment/capital equipment requirements quite as egregious as assembly lines of new cruisers or 638 Challenger 2s for the TA.
What does seem to be the issue is that 1989 is written in stone as a baseline for certain armies. For us, it is the PoD and the year everything changed; from the in-universe perspective, it was 'merely Tuesday'.
So I humbly suggest that, if the Arms Plot viewed 57 as a bare minimum, and the purse strings are opening up across the board, there might be scope for some groats to be grudgingly rolled towards the Regular Army PBI in addition to the largesse poured over the TA as if it were the Prodigal Son.
My coda to that is that, if World War Three happens, keeping Regular battalions on Home Defence or garrison missions when there is now a conscript pipeline opening up may not be the best utilisation of trained professional manpower.
The additional armour and artillery units...aren't. They are TA units, or to use its 1967-1979 title for emphasis, the Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve.
As of D+100, the Army has 22 field, 8 heavy and 8 air defence regiments in the BAOR; 2 field regiments with 5th AD in Denmark; 2 field regiments in Norway; and 1 with UKMF Mk 2. There are 26 armoured regiments equipped with MBTs.
Prewar, there were 13 regular armoured regiments and 11 TA armoured regiments, and 12 air defence (5 regular and 7 TA), 21 field (12 regular and 9 TA) and 8 heavy regiments (4 regular and 4 TA).
In 1989, there were 14 field regiments (12 regular, 2 TA), 3 heavy regiments + 1 missile regiment and 8 air defence regiments (4 regular, 4 TA ) + 6 AD batteries and 13 regular armoured regiments (4th/7th, 15th/19th, 5th DG, B&R, 3RTR, 14/20, 17/21, 1RTR, QOH, 4RTR, 2RTR, RSDG, RH)
The total TLW Regular Army increases amount to 1 air defence regiment, which was likely grouped from the independent Air Defence batteries. A reasonable interpretation wouldn't view that as a Regular Army increase, but a consolidation of existing forces.
The TA has increased markedly by 7 field regiments, 4 heavy regiments and 3 air defence regiments for the Artillery and 11 armoured regiments for the RAC. Based on approximate manpower requirements, that is 6050 for the armoured units and 6720 for the artillery, on top of ~ 12,000 for the additional 20 odd TA infantry battalions. Additional supporting units and the 20 HSF battalions will likely take the TA up from 76,661 in 1989 or even the 90,000 outlined for 1990 in DEFE 70/1844 Home Defence Reinforcements and Reserves, linked in my post here: viewtopic.php?t=361&start=140
Looking at those numbers, there isn't going to be much change out of 125,000 men in the TA, which puts it around 1956 levels.
RAF
The TLW RAF on the other hand has 25 tactical fighter squadrons at home and 11 in RAFG, plus 13 Royal Auxiliary Air Force squadrons, compared to 1989's 21 at home and 12 in RAFG. 3 squadrons over 16 years isn't breaking the bank by any stretch of the imagination.
It isn't the RAF.
RN
The Royal Navy's expansion in TLW is pretty unprecedented in peacetime, going to 3 + 2 carriers, 18 + 4 SSN, 10 + 2 cruisers, 23 + 4 destroyers, 42 frigates and 18 + 10 corvettes from 3 carriers, 16 + 2 SSN, 13 destroyers and 29 + 7 frigates.
No eyelids have been batted or even fluttered at the RN increase.
Yet if I mention the possibility of 4-6 Regular Army battalions over 16 years, you'd think I've interrupted the Coronation to give a verbal advertisement for Raid Shadow Legends.
What numbers would be necessary? Between 2400 to 3600 men.
The manpower is there, given British unemployment rates aren't going to be extremely different over 1989-2005.
Take 1997, for example, lying nicely in the middle of the 16 year period.
British Population ~58,307,320. Males 20-24 ~ 1.7 million, 25-29 2.1 million and 30-34 2.35 million. Unemployment rate was 6.9%, and total was just under 2 million.
A battalion worth of men translates to 1 in 10,500 adult men alone.
Total in HM Armed Forces is likely to be 60,000-70,000 for the RN, 100,000 for the RAF and 155,000-160,000 for the Army, plus 90,000-100,000 TA, 12,000-15,000 RAF and 32,000 RN. Round up the reserves to 150,000 and the regular forces to 320,000-330,000 and the total is 470,000-480,000.
1996/97 @ British Army recruiting was 15,522 and 1997/98 was 15,379. That is likely to be a tad higher here with greater budgets and the higher social cachet of defence and arms.
The cost isn't significant, nor are the equipment/capital equipment requirements quite as egregious as assembly lines of new cruisers or 638 Challenger 2s for the TA.
What does seem to be the issue is that 1989 is written in stone as a baseline for certain armies. For us, it is the PoD and the year everything changed; from the in-universe perspective, it was 'merely Tuesday'.
So I humbly suggest that, if the Arms Plot viewed 57 as a bare minimum, and the purse strings are opening up across the board, there might be scope for some groats to be grudgingly rolled towards the Regular Army PBI in addition to the largesse poured over the TA as if it were the Prodigal Son.
My coda to that is that, if World War Three happens, keeping Regular battalions on Home Defence or garrison missions when there is now a conscript pipeline opening up may not be the best utilisation of trained professional manpower.
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Simon,
I will post tonight but personal issues were dire in 1989/90.
The MARILYN Report - Manning And Recruiting IN the Lean Years of the Nineties
The report saw a demographic trough developing in the ‘90’s, less young people to join the forces, in particular the Army. The report forecast the trend and developed some steps to combat it. Now with a continuing Cold War we can postulate the events of 1989/90 saw a significant one time shift in Eastern European populations that were able to escape before the Iron Curtain was again closed. This may help (IRL it did) the demographic trough in the UK. Reading Patrick Delaforce’s books (numerous Div histories from WWII) I was struck to see a whole Pl in a Bn of The Rifle Brigade were all Eastern European in NWE.
The RAC had to disband all the ATGW (FV438 SWINGFIRE) due to lack of personnel
The Infantry, the Light Div Bns, some were short by a Coy or more. The same for The Queen’s Regt and RRF
I am still working on the ORBAT and I will notate my thought process for Bernard. Hopefully everything will be clear once I am finished and it’s approved.
I will get back with my thought process on the TA
I will post tonight but personal issues were dire in 1989/90.
The MARILYN Report - Manning And Recruiting IN the Lean Years of the Nineties
The report saw a demographic trough developing in the ‘90’s, less young people to join the forces, in particular the Army. The report forecast the trend and developed some steps to combat it. Now with a continuing Cold War we can postulate the events of 1989/90 saw a significant one time shift in Eastern European populations that were able to escape before the Iron Curtain was again closed. This may help (IRL it did) the demographic trough in the UK. Reading Patrick Delaforce’s books (numerous Div histories from WWII) I was struck to see a whole Pl in a Bn of The Rifle Brigade were all Eastern European in NWE.
The RAC had to disband all the ATGW (FV438 SWINGFIRE) due to lack of personnel
The Infantry, the Light Div Bns, some were short by a Coy or more. The same for The Queen’s Regt and RRF
I am still working on the ORBAT and I will notate my thought process for Bernard. Hopefully everything will be clear once I am finished and it’s approved.
I will get back with my thought process on the TA
-
Simon Darkshade
- Posts: 2144
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
All of that is noted and relevant.
However, my point has been that there is more beyond 1989/90, and that is not a year of great epoch making significance here.
I don't think that the early 1990s recession would be butterflied away by an ongoing Cold War, as the bones of it were definitely around for some years before the PoD. That will result in higher unemployment and other factors which may not have been anticipated in reports written in 1989/90.
The expansions discussed in the Prologue all drop in 1997/98, but there is nothing especially noteworthy about that year apart from it lying at the halfway point of the TLW Buildup.
As said afore, the TA gets a huge increase in numbers and capital equipment. The RN gets a huge increase in numbers and capital equipment. The RAF gets an increase in capital equipment. The Regular Army is the odd man out, and some parts of it in particular. Even the Royal Signals and RLC get priority over any (heretical) suggestion of extra infantry battalions.
During the course of TLW Round 1's 400 chapters and the new bits, I cannot recall any sequences where there was discussion of not having enough signallers or cooks. I can recall a specific sequence about how the bottom of the barrel was being scraped to deploy troops from Cyprus to Turkey, and of course, we have the very recent sequence on the withdrawal of a combat brigade from the Middle East. This isn't a postfacto rationalisation, just an observation that the issue definitely arises and has arisen.
There is the absence of the peace dividend rounds of cuts here, and an established big boost in defence numbers and investment from the mid 1990s forwards. If, during that process, the Regular Army is running on the bones of its bottom with regards to the number of infantry units necessary to cover all contingencies, it doesn't seem to make sense to then completely ignore this whilst stuffing the TA like a French goose.
It need not have any impact upon what has been written, as the majority of British units assigned to Home Forces haven't seen any 'onscreen' action, but in any event, with the advent of conscription, it is possible that there might be more units which aren't simply assigned to TA battalions.
If not in a protracted and largely conventional World War Three, then when?
However, my point has been that there is more beyond 1989/90, and that is not a year of great epoch making significance here.
I don't think that the early 1990s recession would be butterflied away by an ongoing Cold War, as the bones of it were definitely around for some years before the PoD. That will result in higher unemployment and other factors which may not have been anticipated in reports written in 1989/90.
The expansions discussed in the Prologue all drop in 1997/98, but there is nothing especially noteworthy about that year apart from it lying at the halfway point of the TLW Buildup.
As said afore, the TA gets a huge increase in numbers and capital equipment. The RN gets a huge increase in numbers and capital equipment. The RAF gets an increase in capital equipment. The Regular Army is the odd man out, and some parts of it in particular. Even the Royal Signals and RLC get priority over any (heretical) suggestion of extra infantry battalions.
During the course of TLW Round 1's 400 chapters and the new bits, I cannot recall any sequences where there was discussion of not having enough signallers or cooks. I can recall a specific sequence about how the bottom of the barrel was being scraped to deploy troops from Cyprus to Turkey, and of course, we have the very recent sequence on the withdrawal of a combat brigade from the Middle East. This isn't a postfacto rationalisation, just an observation that the issue definitely arises and has arisen.
There is the absence of the peace dividend rounds of cuts here, and an established big boost in defence numbers and investment from the mid 1990s forwards. If, during that process, the Regular Army is running on the bones of its bottom with regards to the number of infantry units necessary to cover all contingencies, it doesn't seem to make sense to then completely ignore this whilst stuffing the TA like a French goose.
It need not have any impact upon what has been written, as the majority of British units assigned to Home Forces haven't seen any 'onscreen' action, but in any event, with the advent of conscription, it is possible that there might be more units which aren't simply assigned to TA battalions.
If not in a protracted and largely conventional World War Three, then when?
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
This is from Jan 1989, shortfalls in manpower for BAOR
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Simon Darkshade
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- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:55 am
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Out of interest, would not the 4th Rifle Company be the type of thing very well suited to Reservists, or was it seen as essential to have on the PE?
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
They wanted the fourth Rifle Coy to be in situ in FRG. BAOR planned on 48 hour warning time (worst case) and a 10 day warning time (best case). There was also a worry that recalled Reservists needed at least a 7 day Training After Mobilization period. BAOR could not depend on reservists getting across to Germany in time, which I agree. Besides those BAOR numbers I posted they wanted the Type A Bns coming as reinforcements to also have a fourth rifle coy.
That’s why I am saying that any expansion would be manpower heading to already established units, new units would be, as papers refer to this, a “future aspiration”.
That’s why I am saying that any expansion would be manpower heading to already established units, new units would be, as papers refer to this, a “future aspiration”.
Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
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Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
Read Top to bottom, left to right
Mech Inf Tracked
AMF Bn
Type B Bn
Mech Inf Wheeled
IDB
Armoured Inf Bn
Airmobile Inf Bn
Berlin Bn
These are numbers for cap-badge personnel only, no RAMC, REME, etc attachments
Mech Inf Tracked
AMF Bn
Type B Bn
Mech Inf Wheeled
IDB
Armoured Inf Bn
Airmobile Inf Bn
Berlin Bn
These are numbers for cap-badge personnel only, no RAMC, REME, etc attachments
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Re: After the Last War: Chapter 4
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