History, Politics And Current Affairs

I will need to double check, but IIRC, most of what was captured ended up at the bottom of the South Atlantic.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 12:57 am I will need to double check, but IIRC, most of what was captured ended up at the bottom of the South Atlantic.

That's my understanding also.

I have absolutely no idea how the Vetterli's got there. If I asked they had no answer.

What they did say is that they just kept everything they ever got their hands on. I think the Beaumonts might be a possible clue. They were obviously very old Dutch stock, so I suspect the Vetterli's (I recall the Vitali mags) were some cheap post WWI Dutch buy for the Indonesian/Moluccan Army. I can't clearly recall the Beaumonts after all this time so I don't know if it was a Beaumont-Vitali.

So what the Dutch did was to use the Vitali conversion for their 1870 Beaumonts, it was an economical, effective way to convert an obsolete single-shot to a magazine rifle.

I SPECULATE that sometime before or after WWI the Dutch shipped a number of perhaps excess-to-reserve-stock rifles to the NEI as reserve rifles for the NEI Army, and they needed more. So they bought a cheap bundle of Italian rifles. The point against this is that the ammo is very different.

I stress that this is purest speculation.

Cheers: Mark

jemhouston wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:22 am That's my understanding also.

We did, however, take something like £8 million (1980s prices) worth of Argie ammunition into our service. I have found a list of what was captured from a book published in 1986. I will post as soon as I can.

drmarkbailey wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:45 amI stress that this is purest speculation.

Mark, it makes as much sense as any other explanation. Reminds me of the Snider–Enfield slightly - taking an obsolete weapon and updating it. The Snider–Enfield is a nice weapon to shoot. Even if extracting a spent cartridge is bloody fiddly! It takes a real knack to open the breach.

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:09 pm

jemhouston wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:22 am That's my understanding also.

We did, however, take something like £8 million (1980s prices) worth of Argie ammunition into our service. I have found a list of what was captured from a book published in 1986. I will post as soon as I can.

drmarkbailey wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:45 amI stress that this is purest speculation.

Mark, it makes as much sense as any other explanation. Reminds me of the Snider–Enfield slightly - taking an obsolete weapon and updating it. The Snider–Enfield is a nice weapon to shoot. Even if extracting a spent cartridge is bloody fiddly! It takes a real knack to open the breach.

Pretty much everybody did that, with varying degrees of success. The Bavarian Podewils was probably the worst of the lot, but the trapdoor Springfield and the Snider-Enfield were both pretty good and saw lots of service.

All the first generation breechloaders were fiddly, especially if they jammed. Though it might be a benefit if the Snider is fiddly, given the situation on the Northwest Frontier or Suakin, especially after the Mutiny. Though weapons theft there was a strangely honorable situation.

Better days, eh?

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:09 pm

jemhouston wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:22 am That's my understanding also.

We did, however, take something like £8 million (1980s prices) worth of Argie ammunition into our service. I have found a list of what was captured from a book published in 1986. I will post as soon as I can.

drmarkbailey wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:45 amI stress that this is purest speculation.

Mark, it makes as much sense as any other explanation. Reminds me of the Snider–Enfield slightly - taking an obsolete weapon and updating it. The Snider–Enfield is a nice weapon to shoot. Even if extracting a spent cartridge is bloody fiddly! It takes a real knack to open the breach.

.577 I heard is a spicy round to shoot

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:22 pm

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:09 pm

jemhouston wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:22 am That's my understanding also.

We did, however, take something like £8 million (1980s prices) worth of Argie ammunition into our service. I have found a list of what was captured from a book published in 1986. I will post as soon as I can.

drmarkbailey wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 1:45 amI stress that this is purest speculation.

Mark, it makes as much sense as any other explanation. Reminds me of the Snider–Enfield slightly - taking an obsolete weapon and updating it. The Snider–Enfield is a nice weapon to shoot. Even if extracting a spent cartridge is bloody fiddly! It takes a real knack to open the breach.

Pretty much everybody did that, with varying degrees of success. The Bavarian Podewils was probably the worst of the lot, but the trapdoor Springfield and the Snider-Enfield were both pretty good and saw lots of service.

All the first generation breechloaders were fiddly, especially if they jammed. Though it might be a benefit if the Snider is fiddly, given the situation on the Northwest Frontier or Suakin, especially after the Mutiny. Though weapons theft there was a strangely honorable situation.

Better days, eh?

Ian mcullum has done a very good series of videos on black powder breech loaders

MFOM wrote: ↑Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:16 am

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:22 pm

Bernard Woolley wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 3:09 pm

We did, however, take something like £8 million (1980s prices) worth of Argie ammunition into our service. I have found a list of what was captured from a book published in 1986. I will post as soon as I can.




Mark, it makes as much sense as any other explanation. Reminds me of the Snider–Enfield slightly - taking an obsolete weapon and updating it. The Snider–Enfield is a nice weapon to shoot. Even if extracting a spent cartridge is bloody fiddly! It takes a real knack to open the breach.

Pretty much everybody did that, with varying degrees of success. The Bavarian Podewils was probably the worst of the lot, but the trapdoor Springfield and the Snider-Enfield were both pretty good and saw lots of service.

All the first generation breechloaders were fiddly, especially if they jammed. Though it might be a benefit if the Snider is fiddly, given the situation on the Northwest Frontier or Suakin, especially after the Mutiny. Though weapons theft there was a strangely honorable situation.

Better days, eh?

Ian mcullum has done a very good series of videos on black powder breech loaders

They’re really nasty weapons, with sizable stopping power. You don’t have the volume of fire or improved ballistics of the magazine rifles in the roughly 7-8mm range, but the 11-12mm bullets are absolutely going to knock you on your ass.

A friend has recently bought a Snider. Lovely piece of kit and I am very slightly jealous but I have too many rifles now.

I've got a focus on Martini-Henry's, the most historical one I have is a Mk I 1871 manufacture, converted to Mk II and then converted again to a 303-1900 for the army of the colony of Victoria. I'm selling my MkIII (it's a civilian model) to the friend with the Snider, which will leave me with 1 MH 577/450-303, a MkII 577/450. a MkIV 577/450, a Gahendra (wallhanger due to terrible, terrible barrel metallurgy) and a .310 Cadet. I want to downsize my firearms to below 20, so I want to sell/ gift 5-10 rifles, the ones I don't regularly use. I also don't want to have to buy another safe!

The nicest one is the Martini-Henry .310 Cadet. They are common in Australia. The coolest one is an Orange Free State Mauser, a Boer War bringback

So I really like old rifles, especially 19th century. Obviously I don't hunt with them, I use a Howa 7.62 mostly for deer and pigs (the ranges swarm with these feral vermin species) with a really rare 1968 Longbranch-Sako 303/243 for lighter feral vermin like foxes and goats. I don't ever hunt natives, only feral vermin species. Spent 5 years basically living on venison and sick of it even in curries, mostly give it away these days.

I'd like to own a Vetterli... but too many rifles! Apologies for the rabbit-hole!

Cheers: Mark

drmarkbailey wrote: ↑Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:02 pm A friend has recently bought a Snider. Lovely piece of kit and I am very slightly jealous but I have too many rifles now.

I've got a focus on Martini-Henry's, the most historical one I have is a Mk I 1871 manufacture, converted to Mk II and then converted again to a 303-1900 for the army of the colony of Victoria. I'm selling my MkIII (it's a civilian model) to the friend with the Snider, which will leave me with 1 MH 577/450-303, a MkII 577/450. a MkIV 577/450, a Gahendra (wallhanger due to terrible, terrible barrel metallurgy) and a .310 Cadet. I want to downsize my firearms to below 20, so I want to sell/ gift 5-10 rifles, the ones I don't regularly use. I also don't want to have to buy another safe!

The nicest one is the Martini-Henry .310 Cadet. They are common in Australia. The coolest one is an Orange Free State Mauser, a Boer War bringback

So I really like old rifles, especially 19th century. Obviously I don't hunt with them, I use a Howa 7.62 mostly for deer and pigs (the ranges swarm with these feral vermin species) with a really rare 1968 Longbranch-Sako 303/243 for lighter feral vermin like foxes and goats. I don't ever hunt natives, only feral vermin species. Spent 5 years basically living on venison and sick of it even in curries, mostly give it away these days.

I'd like to own a Vetterli... but too many rifles! Apologies for the rabbit-hole!

Cheers: Mark

Are modern reproductions of 19th century rifles legal/available in Australia?

Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Sat Aug 09, 2025 11:22 pmAll the first generation breechloaders were fiddly, especially if they jammed.

As I remember from firing a Snider, to open the breach you sort of have to hit it with the heel of your hand in just the right way. Which I could never manage!

MFOM wrote: ↑Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:12 am577 I heard is a spicy round to shoot

Not from memory, though I think the loads I was firing might have been slightly reduced for the range being used. My experience was that black-powder weapons were fairly gentle to shoot. A function of the relatively slow burn. If you want spicy, try firing a German K98k! 7.92 is certainly a bit spicy in a weapon that is a shortened version of a shortened rifle (the G98k)! Interestingly I found .303 in a Martini-Enfield produced quite a sharp recoil. A Martini-Enfield felt a quite a bit lighter than the Martini-Henry.

Talking of .303, I think I may have become something of a heretic. If I had to take a member of the Lee-Enfield into action, it would be the No.5, with the No.4 as second choice. The MLE is just too long; pleasant to shoot though; and I found that while the SMLE's action was smooth, it needed you to be firm with it, or there was a risk of the round not feeding properly. The lightened bolt on a No.4 and No.5 is a dream, & I liked the length of the No.5. The bolt of the G98 family is smoother than the Lee-Enfield; it can be worked thumb and forefinger easily; but, unlike the Lee bolt, the straight pull leaves your hand in the wrong place for taking another shot. Something, IMVHO, that is very important in battle. The G98k is probably the best of the three I've fired (G98, G98k & K98k).

My humble opinion from firing rifles with Lee bolts and Mauser, or Mauser type bolts is if you are taking part in a shooting competition, use someting like a P14/M1917, or Mauser. If you were going to war any time between the 1890s and 1950s, take a Lee. You've also got 10 rounds Vs 5.

drmarkbailey wrote: ↑Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:02 pmA friend has recently bought a Snider. Lovely piece of kit and I am very slightly jealous but I have too many rifles now.

I've got a focus on Martini-Henry's

The Snider is nice. Yet, think of what else was going on in the world of rifles at the time. The first magazine rifles were beginning to appear at the time when we were converting muzzle loading Enfields (I like the Enfield too from my limited experience).

The Martini-Henry is amazing. Its straightforward to load and eject. It's only real fault was that feed problems could occur after prolonged use. I actually experienced a classic jam of a spent round. It jammed in the breach. I must be the only person to ever be thrilled to experience a jam!

MFOM - yes, repro's are available. Pedersoli is probably the most popular. Each state has its own firearms rules and regulations. For example in my home state (Queensland), a 577/450 MH has to be registered - because there is commercially available ammo for it. A Gahendra 577/450 is not required to be registered.

Sounds weird, right?

The issue is that the Gahendra was designed to use Cartridge S.A. Ball Rifle Breech-Loading Martini Henry Mark I, II and III. They're coiled brass, 'soft' cartridges. They were replaced with drawn brass (the Cartridge S.A. Ball Martini Henry Rifle Solid Case Mark I & II). It has more propellant and has much higher gas pressure.

If you use drawn brass cartridges in the Gahendra, and you can, they fit, well, I hope your medical insurance is paid up as the rifle will explode. it might last a while, but it will explode. That's why the Nepalese Army withdrew them from service when they were new, after a century sitting unmaintained in a semi-abandoned palace you'd be insane to fire one.

So there's no commercially available ammo for it. No-one has made Cartridge S.A. Ball Rifle Breech-Loading Martini Henry Mark I, II and III ammo since the 1890s.

I like the SMLE, Bernard, and the manuals say it all. 'The bolt should be closed with a strong soldierly whack.'

Another great rifle is the Arisaka (not selling that).

Cheers: Mark