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David Newton wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:04 am
The conflation of Ukraine aid and lack of aid for the Helene victims in the Hot Air post is disingenuous. It's a false dilemma which is disgusting for them to use.
However beyond that there does appear to be a very, very, very real problem with Biden et al and indeed Cooper et al (Democrats, what a surprise) slow-walking necessary aid steps and in some instances actively sabotaging relief efforts. The sabotaging of the FEMA budget by using it for illegitimate spending on illegal immigrants is an example of the latter. There also appear to be local officials with serious power trip problems, as exemplified by that moron of a fire chief referenced in the video.
It's just a shame that Hot Air included a fallacy in their post to blunt the effectiveness and legitimacy of their arguments and assertions.
Billions for Ukraine, $750 for survivors of a devastating hurricane is just not a good look for domestic politics. They are separate line items, but the urgency for Ukraine when stuff like Helene or the East Palestine train derailment causes significant suffering leads people to conclude that Biden and Kamala Harris care more for Ukraine than they do their own citizens, particularly if those citizens vote Republican.
Interesting, the comparison ukraine vs survivors. For many on the right, Ukraine is thought of as a boondoggle. I personally would draw the comparison billions for illegal aliens vs survivors. That is true apples to apples.
David Newton wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:04 am
The conflation of Ukraine aid and lack of aid for the Helene victims in the Hot Air post is disingenuous. It's a false dilemma which is disgusting for them to use.
However beyond that there does appear to be a very, very, very real problem with Biden et al and indeed Cooper et al (Democrats, what a surprise) slow-walking necessary aid steps and in some instances actively sabotaging relief efforts. The sabotaging of the FEMA budget by using it for illegitimate spending on illegal immigrants is an example of the latter. There also appear to be local officials with serious power trip problems, as exemplified by that moron of a fire chief referenced in the video.
It's just a shame that Hot Air included a fallacy in their post to blunt the effectiveness and legitimacy of their arguments and assertions.
Billions for Ukraine, $750 for survivors of a devastating hurricane is just not a good look for domestic politics. They are separate line items, but the urgency for Ukraine when stuff like Helene or the East Palestine train derailment causes significant suffering leads people to conclude that Biden and Kamala Harris care more for Ukraine than they do their own citizens, particularly if those citizens vote Republican.
Interesting, the comparison ukraine vs survivors. For many on the right, Ukraine is thought of as a boondoggle. I personally would draw the comparison billions for illegal aliens vs survivors. That is true apples to apples.
rtoldman agree on that.
Problem is the admin is tone deaf on the subject
Massively Tone-Deaf Samantha Power Brags About Lighting Up Ukraine While Americans Sit in the Dark
SpaceX and @TMobile have been given emergency special temporary authority by the @FCC to enable @Starlink satellites with direct-to-cell capability to provide coverage for cell phones in the affected areas of Hurricane Helene.
The satellites have already been enabled and started broadcasting emergency alerts to cell phones on all networks in North Carolina. In addition, we may test basic texting (SMS) capabilities for most cell phones on the T-Mobile network in North Carolina.
SpaceX’s direct-to-cell constellation has not been fully deployed, so all services will be delivered on a best-effort basis.
Just on the face of it, it’s extremely difficult to get things like sexuality for things where it matters - like STD transmission. There’s no way in hell that you are going to have any idea who is what in a disaster - shit, we don’t have anything better than back of the envelope estimates of how many gay guys we have in California, let alone the ability to pinpoint and prioritize immediate lifesaving services based on sexuality in the relatively small area that is a disaster.
So it’s highly highly highly unlikely that you’re going to have a helicopter wave off rescuing you from the roof of a flooded building because you’re not gay. I’m not saying it’s impossible - because bad decisions know no limit - but it’s very unlikely. And there are situations like monkeypox where immediate response does need to consider race and sexuality, because that’s who is impacted by the disaster.
Immediate response operations are always a balancing act, trying to spread resources around so that none of the potentially dozens of incidents get out of control. Again, lifesaving operations are going to be prioritized by need and vulnerability - we’re going to put more resources into a nursing home, for example, because they’re a whole lot less self sufficient. And we’re going to prioritize large groups of people over onesies and twosies, again due to maximizing bang for the buck.
It’s when we get to recovery that you can try to prioritize assistance based on demographics as a proxy for income and thus ability to bounce back. When you get folks off the hill and out of immediate danger that you might have enough information to describe the demographics of who is impacted. Based on the call, FEMA was using race and sexuality as proxies for poverty and access. Some of those assumptions (such as African-Americans being more likely to be impoverished and wiped out financially by the disaster) are reasonable, and some (especially gays and lesbians being wiped out financially) are more questionable.
We have seen situations (like COVID) where administratons have chosen to take the one size fits all approach with assistance, though even then they put some income limits on it. Other situations (your more traditional fires/floods/tornadoes) tend to get stricter triage based on economic need, though inevitably people who have more bounce back faster, because they have more. Which is not to say they’re not hurt, just that they have more personal resources at their disposal. So, inevitably you end up with more focus on the people in greater need, because those folks have the hardest time bouncing back.
Now that is where decisions may be made on demographic lines. They should be made on economic ones, but we do have a lot of people who prefer to use race and demographics because they’re easier to assess. And, as I said above, some of those assumptions about race being a good proxy for income and need may be valid (such as predominantly African-American communities) and some not (such as poor white rural communities).
So I’d say it’s an exaggeration. It’s unlikely to impact lifesaving operations, but you may have people who are in need get less support because recovery resources were allocated based on bad assumptions about demographics being a proxy for need.
David Newton wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:04 am
The conflation of Ukraine aid and lack of aid for the Helene victims in the Hot Air post is disingenuous. It's a false dilemma which is disgusting for them to use.
However beyond that there does appear to be a very, very, very real problem with Biden et al and indeed Cooper et al (Democrats, what a surprise) slow-walking necessary aid steps and in some instances actively sabotaging relief efforts. The sabotaging of the FEMA budget by using it for illegitimate spending on illegal immigrants is an example of the latter. There also appear to be local officials with serious power trip problems, as exemplified by that moron of a fire chief referenced in the video.
It's just a shame that Hot Air included a fallacy in their post to blunt the effectiveness and legitimacy of their arguments and assertions.
Billions for Ukraine, $750 for survivors of a devastating hurricane is just not a good look for domestic politics. They are separate line items, but the urgency for Ukraine when stuff like Helene or the East Palestine train derailment causes significant suffering leads people to conclude that Biden and Kamala Harris care more for Ukraine than they do their own citizens, particularly if those citizens vote Republican.
People are still running with that $750 line?
Took this from another board from someone who is in the impacted area. It would be really shameful if people are not applying for aid with FEMA because of mis-information that is being put out. " For the record... FEMA IS on the ground and they have been from early on. My friend lost everything. She met with a FEMA agent Saturday. By Tuesday, she was approved for disaster relief totalling just shy of $58k. Obviously, that doesn't replace everything, but FEMA doesn't just write blank checks. If qualified, you get UP TO $42.5k for housing assistance and UP TO another $42.5k materiel assistance (she got the max and $11k respectively). She also got $3500 misc and the $750 that everybody is bitching about. She is beyond grateful at the help both grassroots volunteers AND the feds are. No, no government agency is perfect, but FEMA isn't totally useless either."
Re: Helene
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
by Edi
Trump is only projecting on Harris what he did as President, when he misappropriated FEMA funds.
FEMA also has several different funds for different purposes and they are by law prevented from shifting fuinds from one pool to another precisely to combat abuses and corruption.
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
But most of what I see in this thread are just regurgitating the copious lies Trump has spewed for days now. Enough that people in the western NC are threatening FEMA and other emergency services workers based on those lies.
Re: Helene
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2024 3:45 pm
by Kunkmiester
Lots of confirmation bias, unfortunately well deserved. The sort of crap they're being accused of has happened often enough it was easy to buy into. I was expecting videos to start showing up pretty quick after the claims surfaced but that grows less likely by the day.
We do not have a functional government, and that reaches all the way up to POTUS.
Re: Helene
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2024 3:52 pm
by Poohbah
Edi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
Trump is only projecting on Harris what he did as President, when he misappropriated FEMA funds.
FEMA also has several different funds for different purposes and they are by law prevented from shifting fuinds from one pool to another precisely to combat abuses and corruption.
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
But most of what I see in this thread are just regurgitating the copious lies Trump has spewed for days now. Enough that people in the western NC are threatening FEMA and other emergency services workers based on those lies.
Mayorkas said they were fully funded, and now he's saying that FEMA is tapped out.
Put me in charge of the interrogation. I will get answers. Your electricity bill will, of necessity, skyrocket.
Edi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
Trump is only projecting on Harris what he did as President, when he misappropriated FEMA funds.
FEMA also has several different funds for different purposes and they are by law prevented from shifting fuinds from one pool to another precisely to combat abuses and corruption.
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
But most of what I see in this thread are just regurgitating the copious lies Trump has spewed for days now. Enough that people in the western NC are threatening FEMA and other emergency services workers based on those lies.
Mayorkas said they were fully funded, and now he's saying that FEMA is tapped out.
Put me in charge of the interrogation. I will get answers. Your electricity bill will, of necessity, skyrocket.
I didn't think you have the grid capacity to get it done properly.
Re: Helene
Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2024 7:39 pm
by kdahm
Edi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
Trump is only projecting on Harris what he did as President, when he misappropriated FEMA funds.
FEMA also has several different funds for different purposes and they are by law prevented from shifting fuinds from one pool to another precisely to combat abuses and corruption.
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
But most of what I see in this thread are just regurgitating the copious lies Trump has spewed for days now. Enough that people in the western NC are threatening FEMA and other emergency services workers based on those lies.
There's also a lot to the truth that FEMA is dysfunctional on a high level where policy is being made. The lower levels are doing what they can, but suffer from inconsistent directives from above, an incoherent data management and entry system, and damage categorizations that don't make any sense. Thus, it can take years for FEMA to actually pay out, minor problems with people submitting forms result in denials, and predicting what it will do is akin to tea leaf reading. Much like a lot of the rest of the Federal Government.
The $750 is, I believe, a small loan or grant to individuals in the affected area so that they can immediately get some sort of food and housing. It isn't the total available, nor is it supposed to be comprehensive. It's just there so that they don't have to set up refugee camps unless actually needed.
To fix FEMA, first decide what it's actually supposed to do, then remove everything that is surplus to that requirement. Then fund it so it can do it's core responsibilities. Also, find a way of explaining to the public that FEMA isn't the one who's supposed to the restore them to the condition they were in before the disaster.
Edi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
Trump is only projecting on Harris what he did as President, when he misappropriated FEMA funds.
FEMA also has several different funds for different purposes and they are by law prevented from shifting fuinds from one pool to another precisely to combat abuses and corruption.
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
But most of what I see in this thread are just regurgitating the copious lies Trump has spewed for days now. Enough that people in the western NC are threatening FEMA and other emergency services workers based on those lies.
Mayorkas said they were fully funded, and now he's saying that FEMA is tapped out.
Put me in charge of the interrogation. I will get answers. Your electricity bill will, of necessity, skyrocket.
What was said that that FEMA "Does not have the funds to make it through" the rest of the Hurricane season. However he said they have enough funding to meet the immediate needs, which was for Hurricane Helene. However coming in right after Helene was Milton.
Re: Helene
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2024 5:39 pm
by Calder
Edi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
This is false. The Republicans in the state of Florida voted against the bill not all Republicans in the House. Which if you had spent even 5 seconds thinking about it should have been obvious. Republicans control the House. The continuing resolution funding bill couldn't have passed without some Republican votes.
Edi wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 1:45 pm
Trump is only projecting on Harris what he did as President, when he misappropriated FEMA funds.
FEMA also has several different funds for different purposes and they are by law prevented from shifting fuinds from one pool to another precisely to combat abuses and corruption.
Yopu may want to ask the Republicans in Congress why FEMA is not fully funded to deal with the disasters of Helene and Milton, because every single Republican there voted against funding it just before the hurricanes hit.
But most of what I see in this thread are just regurgitating the copious lies Trump has spewed for days now. Enough that people in the western NC are threatening FEMA and other emergency services workers based on those lies.
There's also a lot to the truth that FEMA is dysfunctional on a high level where policy is being made. The lower levels are doing what they can, but suffer from inconsistent directives from above, an incoherent data management and entry system, and damage categorizations that don't make any sense. Thus, it can take years for FEMA to actually pay out, minor problems with people submitting forms result in denials, and predicting what it will do is akin to tea leaf reading. Much like a lot of the rest of the Federal Government.
The $750 is, I believe, a small loan or grant to individuals in the affected area so that they can immediately get some sort of food and housing. It isn't the total available, nor is it supposed to be comprehensive. It's just there so that they don't have to set up refugee camps unless actually needed.
To fix FEMA, first decide what it's actually supposed to do, then remove everything that is surplus to that requirement. Then fund it so it can do it's core responsibilities. Also, find a way of explaining to the public that FEMA isn't the one who's supposed to the restore them to the condition they were in before the disaster.
This is also mostly false. Unfortunately, some Republicans are trying to turn this into a political issue by creating lies and false rumors. The stories of FEMA stealing people's land for Lithium or using debt traps against people is getting people killed. The 750 dollars is not a loan. It is free money given on the very 1st day no questions asked while Fema figures out what additional aid someone qualifies for. Lying about stuff like this isn't just morally repugnant but from a strategic perspective incredibly stupid as the truth will come out eventually and boomrang back at us.
Note: I don't think kdahm is lying about this subject just the people he got the information from. They are the people I find morally repugnant.
kdahm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 7:39 pm
There's also a lot to the truth that FEMA is dysfunctional on a high level where policy is being made. The lower levels are doing what they can, but suffer from inconsistent directives from above, an incoherent data management and entry system, and damage categorizations that don't make any sense. Thus, it can take years for FEMA to actually pay out, minor problems with people submitting forms result in denials, and predicting what it will do is akin to tea leaf reading. Much like a lot of the rest of the Federal Government.
The $750 is, I believe, a small loan or grant to individuals in the affected area so that they can immediately get some sort of food and housing. It isn't the total available, nor is it supposed to be comprehensive. It's just there so that they don't have to set up refugee camps unless actually needed.
To fix FEMA, first decide what it's actually supposed to do, then remove everything that is surplus to that requirement. Then fund it so it can do it's core responsibilities. Also, find a way of explaining to the public that FEMA isn't the one who's supposed to the restore them to the condition they were in before the disaster.
This is also mostly false. Unfortunately, some Republicans are trying to turn this into a political issue by creating lies and false rumors. The stories of FEMA stealing people's land for Lithium or using debt traps against people is getting people killed. The 750 dollars is not a loan. It is free money given on the very 1st day no questions asked while Fema figures out what additional aid someone qualifies for. Lying about stuff like this isn't just morally repugnant but from a strategic perspective incredibly stupid as the truth will come out eventually and boomrang back at us.
Note: I don't think kdahm is lying about this subject just the people he got the information from. They are the people I find morally repugnant.
Which part of it is mostly false?
The first paragraph? I've seen that with hurricanes and flood events around here. It's ordinary Big Government disfunction, trying to account for every penny and prevent any misappropriation, not a case of venality or corruption.
Second paragraph? The $750 was either a grant or a loan? AS you describe it, it's a grant. I wasn't sure which it was, so I threw both options in. Then described the reasons I thought of for the policy. Different FEMA programs have different restrictions, and it's important to read the paperwork before taking the money.
Third paragraph? My thoughts for improving and fixing FEMA, which have about as much a chance of happening as a sheet of toilet paper in a hurricane.
The stealing land for lithium, debt traps? That's strawmen set up which are in no way present or implied. The tone throughout the post that I am obviously lying, with some sort of motive is certainly not appreciated.
kdahm wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 7:39 pm
There's also a lot to the truth that FEMA is dysfunctional on a high level where policy is being made. The lower levels are doing what they can, but suffer from inconsistent directives from above, an incoherent data management and entry system, and damage categorizations that don't make any sense. Thus, it can take years for FEMA to actually pay out, minor problems with people submitting forms result in denials, and predicting what it will do is akin to tea leaf reading. Much like a lot of the rest of the Federal Government.
The $750 is, I believe, a small loan or grant to individuals in the affected area so that they can immediately get some sort of food and housing. It isn't the total available, nor is it supposed to be comprehensive. It's just there so that they don't have to set up refugee camps unless actually needed.
To fix FEMA, first decide what it's actually supposed to do, then remove everything that is surplus to that requirement. Then fund it so it can do it's core responsibilities. Also, find a way of explaining to the public that FEMA isn't the one who's supposed to the restore them to the condition they were in before the disaster.
This is also mostly false. Unfortunately, some Republicans are trying to turn this into a political issue by creating lies and false rumors. The stories of FEMA stealing people's land for Lithium or using debt traps against people is getting people killed. The 750 dollars is not a loan. It is free money given on the very 1st day no questions asked while Fema figures out what additional aid someone qualifies for. Lying about stuff like this isn't just morally repugnant but from a strategic perspective incredibly stupid as the truth will come out eventually and boomrang back at us.
Note: I don't think kdahm is lying about this subject just the people he got the information from. They are the people I find morally repugnant.
Which part of it is mostly false?
The first paragraph? I've seen that with hurricanes and flood events around here. It's ordinary Big Government disfunction, trying to account for every penny and prevent any misappropriation, not a case of venality or corruption.
Second paragraph? The $750 was either a grant or a loan? AS you describe it, it's a grant. I wasn't sure which it was, so I threw both options in. Then described the reasons I thought of for the policy. Different FEMA programs have different restrictions, and it's important to read the paperwork before taking the money.
Third paragraph? My thoughts for improving and fixing FEMA, which have about as much a chance of happening as a sheet of toilet paper in a hurricane.
The stealing land for lithium, debt traps? That's strawmen set up which are in no way present or implied. The tone throughout the post that I am obviously lying, with some sort of motive is certainly not appreciated.
You know what? I agree with you I was too fast on the trigger on this one. I had just corrected Edi and wanted to correct the only $750 is a loan myth.
Asheville 1 month after Helene faces long recovery
by Katie Wadington - 10/27/24 6:00 AM ET
SOUTH ASHEVILLE, N.C. — One month after Hurricane Helene wreaked havoc on this corner of western North Carolina, the debris is everywhere.
Shade trees are cut into pieces, sitting on lawns, while ruined flooring and sheetrock pile up next to roads.
Bridges are cut in half, while homes, vehicles and appliances are strewn around, glued into riverbanks or resting in unexpected spots. The remains of a camper, several feet off the ground, are wedged into the railing of a city playground. A dirty blue sedan rests nearly upright, parked on a wooden fence.
If you spend any time on social media, new images or videos with fresh stories of destruction pop up every few days.
Since Sept. 27, groups and individuals have worked tirelessly to make sure people have what they need, from food to gloves to generators.
It’s a community driven to rebuild, while honoring the dozens of mountain residents who died in floodwaters or landslides.
But the recovery will be a massive undertaking, and while there is a course of positive energy running through the region, it’s hard not to be exhausted by living here.
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Workers have lost wages, and small-business owners their dreams. Some restaurants and retailers are able to open, but with reduced hours and fewer offerings.
Children have missed as much as a month of school. The area’s largest district returned to the classroom Friday.
Tourism, a critical revenue source for the region, especially in October, has been hobbled.
In Helene’s immediate aftermath, officials quickly asked visitors to reconsider fall vacations. Now, many western North Carolina towns are pleading for day-trippers and leaf peepers to return. Individual Asheville businesses are promoting their hours, encouraging patrons.
Behind a wire fence, the entrance to the fabled Biltmore Estate looks like it is newly under construction, with fewer trees and a view where a building used to sit. It’s a dusty spot, because there’s been no rain since Helene and its preceding storm dropped more than a dozen inches.
Asheville’s decimated water system is slowly coming back online. Most people have water, but it may be brown and suitable only for flushing. Shower trailers are set up around town. Towers of bottled water are in every store, because water can’t be safely used from a tap without boiling it first.
Bike and hiking trails are reopening, allowing for some fresh air and a chance to exhale. But with the Blue Ridge Parkway closed for the foreseeable future, many favorite mountains and views remain unreachable.
The scale and cost of recovery is immense.
The state budget office has estimated Helene’s damage and recovery needs at $53 billion. On Friday, the General Assembly approved a second round of relief funding, totaling $604 million, which is on top of an initial $253 million outlay. Gov. Roy Cooper (D) had asked for $3.9 billion, which he called “a downpayment on western North Carolina’s future.”
The state Department of Transportation has identified more than 7,000 locations with road damage, including 654 bridges. At least 100 of those bridges need to be replaced, at a cost of at least $1 million apiece, according to a report in The Assembly.
The hit to tourism amounts to a potential “economic maelstrom,” said Elizabeth Button, the chair of Asheville Independent Restaurants (AIR), the Asheville Citizen Times reported.
In 2023, Asheville generated $2.97 billion from tourism, according to Explore Asheville and the Buncombe County Tourism Development Authority. It accounts for 20 percent of the county’s gross domestic product.
Citing that figure, AIR has called for state and federal economic support to protect the industry, which employs nearly 15,000 people.
As leaders and residents discuss moving forward, conversations have focused on answers to tough question: What can we learn from this and how can we reset? Will areas that never expected to flood but are now rubble be redeveloped? In a city already strapped for affordable housing, that discussion will need to be thoughtful and critical.
Asheville leaders have talked about the need to overhaul the city’s aging water system for years. This event has pushed that discussion to the forefront, and the repairs will be pricey.
Recovery efforts already look different, at the start of month two post-Helene.
Buncombe County has received such an outpouring of donations — from water to food to clothing — it’s asked for donors to shift to financial support.
Much of the cleanup and rebuilding will now require professional expertise rather than the efforts of neighbors and volunteers.
For most, the tragedies of Asheville, Lake Lure, Burnsville, Spruce Pine, Marshall, Hot Springs, Green Mountain, and so many more towns and hollers, will move into the rearview mirror long before — years before — life returns to normal.
But as the overwhelming outside response to Helene moves on, it is imperative for the future of western North Carolina that its needs are not forgotten.
Katie Wadington is the deputy managing editor of The Hill. She has lived in the Asheville area since 2005 and spent 15 years on staff at the Asheville Citizen Times.
Tags Roy Cooper