Royal Navy Order Of Battle

[Lordroel]

That's a graphic of what would become the @ design. So, it would make sense that in the 2005 of TLW, graphics such as that would be around.

So the class is as we now have in service then.

[Bernard Woolley]

Well, that would be spoilers!

[Lordroel]

Well, that would be spoilers!

Well then finish World War III so we can get the answer, unless you go with Book 2, The Second Last War.

[Lordroel]

So somebody want to know over at the other place, what the Queen Elizabeth's planned airwing is going to be while operating Sea Harriers and Harrier GR9s prior to the JSF coming into service ?

[Rocket J Squrriel]

Well, that would be spoilers!

Well then finish World War III so we can get the answer, unless you go with Book 2, The Second Last War.

Can we just lock him in a room with a computer and keep him there until he finishes this?

[Lordroel]

Can we just lock him in a room with a computer and keep him there until he finishes this?

And only give him English Breakfast in the morning, Sunday roast with roast meat, vegetables, and Yorkshire pudding for lunch and Fish and chips for diner with only Bitter (beer) to wash it away.

[James1978]

So somebody want to know over at the other place, what the Queen Elizabeth's planned airwing is going to be while operating Sea Harriers and Harrier GR9s prior to the JSF coming into service ?

I'll say here what I said there.

I suppose that depends on how many Sea Harriers and GR9s survive the war.

In @ all 31 surviving Sea Harrier FRS.Mk 1 were converted to FRS.Mk. 2 (FA.Mk 2), while only 18 new build FRS.Mk. 2s were built for a total of 49. From my understanding of the program, I'm not sure we'd see more new builds in TLWverse. But it's possible.

Having said that, F-24B should be available by 2010 when Queen Elizabeth commissions. See British Combat Combat and Support Aircraft Fact File:

Future aircraft.

BAE/GD/LM Scimitar FGR.1.
* Despite its official name, Scimitar, the British version of the F-24B has for some reason acquired the nickname ‘Dave’, exactly why is not clear. The Scimitar FGR.1 will replace the Sea Harrier FA.2 and Harrier GR.9A (q.v) between 2010 and 2012. The Scimitar has been designed to use British weapons such as the ASRAAM, Meteor, Brimstone and Storm Shadow. RAF and RN pilots are currently in America serving as part of a multi-national test squadron.

I seem to recall that the British brought their aircraft (four ??) from the joint test squadron home and they have seen action. So the program is on track.

[clancyphile]

So somebody want to know over at the other place, what the Queen Elizabeth's planned airwing is going to be while operating Sea Harriers and Harrier GR9s prior to the JSF coming into service ?

I'll say here what I said there.

I suppose that depends on how many Sea Harriers and GR9s survive the war.

In @ all 31 surviving Sea Harrier FRS.Mk 1 were converted to FRS.Mk. 2 (FA.Mk 2), while only 18 new build FRS.Mk. 2s were built for a total of 49. From my understanding of the program, I'm not sure we'd see more new builds in TLWverse. But it's possible.

Having said that, F-24B should be available by 2010 when Queen Elizabeth commissions. See British Combat Combat and Support Aircraft Fact File:

Future aircraft.

BAE/GD/LM Scimitar FGR.1.
* Despite its official name, Scimitar, the British version of the F-24B has for some reason acquired the nickname ‘Dave’, exactly why is not clear. The Scimitar FGR.1 will replace the Sea Harrier FA.2 and Harrier GR.9A (q.v) between 2010 and 2012. The Scimitar has been designed to use British weapons such as the ASRAAM, Meteor, Brimstone and Storm Shadow. RAF and RN pilots are currently in America serving as part of a multi-national test squadron.

I seem to recall that the British brought their aircraft (four ??) from the joint test squadron home and they have seen action. So the program is on track.

I'd expect more new-builds of the FRS.2/FA/2, simply because of a longer Cold War. Maybe a joint wing of FA.2 and GR.9s, even.

OTOH, with Strike Group Reagan, one thing I posited was the Harrier FGR.11 for the RAF - a GR.9 with the radar of the FA.2 (kind of like a British version of the AV-8B+). That might be one alternative.

[James1978]

I'd expect more new-builds of the FRS.2/FA/2, simply because of a longer Cold War. Maybe a joint wing of FA.2 and GR.9s, even.

But how many more is the question.

* The RN has three Invincible class ships.
* Each carries up to 22 aircraft.
* In @, typical post-Falklands air group was three AEW Sea Kings, nine ASW Sea Kings and eight or nine Sea Harriers. That would account for 24-27 Sea Harriers. **
* Using @ FA.2 numbers, they have 49 available.
* No.809 Squadron is a TLWverse addition.

49 Sea Harrier FA.2
- 27 (three 9-AC line squadrons)
- 9 (assigned to 899 Sq.)
13 aircraft

Those 13 aircraft are likely spread between reserve aircraft, depot maintenance and testing units, and attrition.

So with a third line squadron formed in TLWverse, we do need to factor in expected peacetime attrition. So sure, I can more than 18 new builds. I just don't think it will be more than a handful of additional aircraft.


** For the sake of discussion, I'm assuming the Merlin's spot factor is close enough to the Sea Kings as to not affect air group composition.

[clancyphile]

I'd expect more new-builds of the FRS.2/FA/2, simply because of a longer Cold War. Maybe a joint wing of FA.2 and GR.9s, even.

But how many more is the question.

* The RN has three Invincible class ships.
* Each carries up to 22 aircraft.
* In @, typical post-Falklands air group was three AEW Sea Kings, nine ASW Sea Kings and eight or nine Sea Harriers. That would account for 24-27 Sea Harriers. **
* Using @ FA.2 numbers, they have 49 available.
* No.809 Squadron is a TLWverse addition.

49 Sea Harrier FA.2
- 27 (three 9-AC line squadrons)
- 9 (assigned to 899 Sq.)
13 aircraft

Those 13 aircraft are likely spread between reserve aircraft, depot maintenance and testing units, and attrition.

So with a third line squadron formed in TLWverse, we do need to factor in expected peacetime attrition. So sure, I can more than 18 new builds. I just don't think it will be more than a handful of additional aircraft.


** For the sake of discussion, I'm assuming the Merlin's spot factor is close enough to the Sea Kings as to not affect air group composition.

My back-of-the envelope guess? 14 more birds to the 18.

That would leave 27 for the three line squadrons, nine for 899, nine for RDT&E, leaving 18 in maintenance and as attrition reserves.

[Fusilier]

Was there not a post way back by Bernard that said a 2-seater (or two) was also assigned to the FAA Sea Harrier Sqns as a "buddy tanker"?

Perhaps the FAA ORBAT?

I think it was in response to me asking if an "Attack" configured Invincible class CVS, would land some ASW Sea Kings (keep the AEWs) and have a "navalised" GR.9 (Sea Harrier A.3?) as a dedicated attack aircraft with the FA.2 as a "fighter" (and a back up attack role in benign environments), playing to the strengths of both.

Just one Sqn of "A.3" would suffice as the primary role would be ASW, but would be useful if Somalia needed a malleting...

EDIT!

Found it! RN ORBAT, under FAA: "No. 899 Naval Air Squadron – Sea Harrier FA.2, Harrier T.8N"

[James1978]

BEHOLD!

British Combat and Support Aircraft

BAE Harrier T.8N.
* Nine two-seat Harrier T.4s were upgraded to the same standard as the FA.2, albeit lacking the radar, though they had the requisite cockpit instrumentation, and could provide synthetic radar data.
To act as a force-multiplier the T.8Ns were later equipped to serve in the buddy-tanker role, much as the Supermarine Scimitars of 800B Squadron had done in the Nineteen Sixties. Each of the Invincible class carriers were assigned a pair of T.8N tankers.

So that would put a typical air group at:
X3 Sea King AEW
X9 Merlin ASW
X7 Sea Harrier
X2 T.8N

I'm guessing the T.8Ns, being from the OCU, might not have been regularly aboard for peacetime deployments.

[James1978]

I did some digging into Sea Harrier FA.2 attrition numbers from @.
Through @ March 2005, thirteen FA.2 were lost.

[clancyphile]

BEHOLD!

British Combat and Support Aircraft

BAE Harrier T.8N.
* Nine two-seat Harrier T.4s were upgraded to the same standard as the FA.2, albeit lacking the radar, though they had the requisite cockpit instrumentation, and could provide synthetic radar data.
To act as a force-multiplier the T.8Ns were later equipped to serve in the buddy-tanker role, much as the Supermarine Scimitars of 800B Squadron had done in the Nineteen Sixties. Each of the Invincible class carriers were assigned a pair of T.8N tankers.

So that would put a typical air group at:
X3 Sea King AEW
X9 Merlin ASW
X7 Sea Harrier
X2 T.8N

I'm guessing the T.8Ns, being from the OCU, might not have been regularly aboard for peacetime deployments.

May want to have eight Sea Harrier FA.2s, to have four pairs of wingmen.

[James1978]

Chapter 138 states X9 Sea Harriers in the air group.
Bringing X2 T.8Ns aboard seems to imply sending X2 FA.2s ashore.
I just don't know if the spot factors would allow X8 FA.2s and X2 T.8Ns in addition to the helicopters.

[Bernard Woolley]

I am beginning to wonder if the concept of using T-8N as refulling aircraft was a mistake. It was an idea I came up with about 20 years ago now ( ). One of the issues of operating them on an Invincible class CVSA is that they can't be taken below decks, as they were too large for the deck lifts. That would mean two T-8N sitting on the flight deck all the time. That would be a real pain in the proverbial.

[James1978]

I am beginning to wonder if the concept of using T-8N as refulling aircraft was a mistake. It was an idea I came up with about 20 years ago now ( ). One of the issues of operating them on an Invincible class CVSA is that they can't be taken below decks, as they were too large for the deck lifts. That would mean two T-8N sitting on the flight deck all the time. That would be a real pain in the proverbial.

Oh I don't know. It sounds like one of those things that sounded like a good idea, got tested and seemed to work, got used in a UK-only exercise to good reviews, then they tried it on a full deployment and only then the drawbacks became apparent. And at every step along the way, Falklands veterans sill in uniform got all excited thinking how wonderful the capability would have been back in 1982 and kept pushing it along.

By the time the drawbacks became apparent, they'd already bought the kit. So once a year, they pull the kit out for an exercise to show off to the politicians and mention how useful it will be should the UK ever have to mount Falklands II. But when the TTW starts, every CVS captain prays the higher ups don't saddle them with any T.8Ns. Maybe the RAF can make use of them in Norway?

I'm curious, in what way are the T.8Ns too large for the deck lifts? Everything else fit the deck lifts, right?

[Bernard Woolley]

I'm curious, in what way are the T.8Ns too large for the deck lifts? Everything else fit the deck lifts, right?

AFAIK, they were too long. Their vertical tail was also higher than a SHAR, though I'm not sure if it would have been an issue. I have also harboured doubts about how much 'give away' a T.8N would have, even with two 1,500 litre drop-tanks.