Wolverine and Chiefs

[Johnnie Lyle]

A little bit of context here:

There is a 335th Squadron policy that goes back to the early days of the war, and it's also based on Israeli experience in 1973: if doing CAS, you limit yourself to one run only, expending all of your ordnance in one pass, unless the threat level dictates otherwise. Not only are you in range of divisional level assets such as SA-6, SA-8, and SA-11, but you're also at risk from regimental level threats, such as SA-9. SA-13, and either ZSU-23-4 or ZSU-30/SA-19. At battalion and below, it's heavy machine guns on APCs and tanks, plus MANPADS and small-arms fire.

You are low and fast, and attract the attention of everybody (enemy and friendly) with a gun, and a bullet in the right place can bring down a multimillion-dollar aircraft and force the crew to take a Martin-Baker ride. If lucky, they're rescued. If unlucky, KIA, and very unlucky, POW.... One pass minimizes the risk to aircraft and aircrew, and if you have to go back, do a turnaround, and come back to do this again? So be it.

It's not just this squadron: many other fast-mover outfits do the same thing, unless they're dedicated to the CAS mission (A-10, A-7, and A-4 squadrons). Even the Marines, who pride themselves on CAS, limit themselves to one run only in high-threat areas. Now, if the Army or Marines requesting CAS can take out any hostile air-defense assets, it gives a clearer run to the target, and eases the surface-to-air threat. FACs do make that request regularly, it should be pointed out.

One run just makes it easier for aircraft and aircrew, and as Poobah pointed out, people tend to get ornery when they've just been bombed.

It’s logical, but it’s equally logical that the guys and gals on the ground who are in the thick of things would prefer more to take the heat off. Doubly so when aircraft can put more of a hurt on the Bear at, frankly, a lower cost in lives than a mech or tank battalion doing it. That’s cold comfort to aircrew who don’t come home or squadron COs who have to write the letters, but preferable to the company or battalion COs on the ground who have to write fewer letters that way.

Splitting that baby is why generals get the big bucks.

[Matt Wiser]

That's the attitude of the I-HAWK site at the I-20 bridges over the Brazos. They have a reputation for shooting first and only then checking if the blip they engage has a valid IFF reading.

And Guru and Goalie have come back twice from CAS runs with unexploded SA-7s in their afterburner cans. No desire to repeat the experience, thanks very much. While another crew came back after a run-in with ZSU-30-2 and the only reason they were able to is because there were some dud rounds. The bird needed a new nose radome, a new backseater's canopy, and some other work done...

And the WSO probably needed to change his/her underwear...

Before getting sloppy drunk to try and forget almost getting killed.

[Johnnie Lyle]

That's the attitude of the I-HAWK site at the I-20 bridges over the Brazos. They have a reputation for shooting first and only then checking if the blip they engage has a valid IFF reading.

And Guru and Goalie have come back twice from CAS runs with unexploded SA-7s in their afterburner cans. No desire to repeat the experience, thanks very much. While another crew came back after a run-in with ZSU-30-2 and the only reason they were able to is because there were some dud rounds. The bird needed a new nose radome, a new backseater's canopy, and some other work done...

And the WSO probably needed to change his/her underwear...

Before getting sloppy drunk to try and forget almost getting killed.

Who got drunker, the WSO or the pilot?

The WSO almost died, but the pilot almost lost their WSO. Unless the pilot was a complete psychopath, it’s hard to say which had greater need of booze.

[Matt Wiser]

It was Firefly and Rabbit. Firefly bringing that bird back not only earned him a DFC, but General Yeager (who saw his bird after landing) recruited him for the F-20 program after seeing the shot-up bird and hearing his story.

[Johnnie Lyle]

It was Firefly and Rabbit. Firefly bringing that bird back not only earned him a DFC, but General Yeager (who saw his bird after landing) recruited him for the F-20 program after seeing the shot-up bird and hearing his story.

Single seaters, right?

If so, that makes total sense.

[Matt Wiser]

General Yeager wanted combat veterans for the F-20 program, and seeing a crew bring back a shot-up bird made him decide that he'd best try to recruit the pilot. And he succeeded.

[Johnnie Lyle]

General Yeager wanted combat veterans for the F-20 program, and seeing a crew bring back a shot-up bird made him decide that he'd best try to recruit the pilot. And he succeeded.

Not quite my point.

From personal experience, it’s one thing to risk your life. It’s a very different thing to send people into danger, knowing they’re risking their lives based in large part upon their faith in you.

Having that pounded home by nearly losing your WSO could easily shake your confidence completely or push you to a situation where the only life you’re willing to risk is your own. So it’s 100% reasonable for a pilot in that situation to choose to move to single seaters.

[Poohbah]

General Yeager wanted combat veterans for the F-20 program, and seeing a crew bring back a shot-up bird made him decide that he'd best try to recruit the pilot. And he succeeded.

Not quite my point.

From personal experience, it’s one thing to risk your life. It’s a very different thing to send people into danger, knowing they’re risking their lives based in large part upon their faith in you.

Having that pounded home by nearly losing your WSO could easily shake your confidence completely or push you to a situation where the only life you’re willing to risk is your own. So it’s 100% reasonable for a pilot in that situation to choose to move to single seaters.

Also have to remember that the airplane is moving at roughly 1,000 feet per second, the WSO is only four or five feet behind the pilot, and literally milliseconds determined what happened next.

It makes you think.

[Johnnie Lyle]

General Yeager wanted combat veterans for the F-20 program, and seeing a crew bring back a shot-up bird made him decide that he'd best try to recruit the pilot. And he succeeded.

Not quite my point.

From personal experience, it’s one thing to risk your life. It’s a very different thing to send people into danger, knowing they’re risking their lives based in large part upon their faith in you.

Having that pounded home by nearly losing your WSO could easily shake your confidence completely or push you to a situation where the only life you’re willing to risk is your own. So it’s 100% reasonable for a pilot in that situation to choose to move to single seaters.

Also have to remember that the airplane is moving at roughly 1,000 feet per second, the WSO is only four or five feet behind the pilot, and literally milliseconds determined what happened next.

It makes you think.

Yeah, but that fucks you up very differently. Plus, by definition, you don’t have to live with it if they kill you.

You do if your people get killed due to decisions you made.

[Poohbah]

Not quite my point.

From personal experience, it’s one thing to risk your life. It’s a very different thing to send people into danger, knowing they’re risking their lives based in large part upon their faith in you.

Having that pounded home by nearly losing your WSO could easily shake your confidence completely or push you to a situation where the only life you’re willing to risk is your own. So it’s 100% reasonable for a pilot in that situation to choose to move to single seaters.

Also have to remember that the airplane is moving at roughly 1,000 feet per second, the WSO is only four or five feet behind the pilot, and literally milliseconds determined what happened next.

It makes you think.

Yeah, but that fucks you up very differently. Plus, by definition, you don’t have to live with it if they kill you.

You do if your people get killed due to decisions you made.

Trust me, thinking on it does fuck you up, and it does so all the worse the longer the war goes on. "Why did I roll the hard six all those times, when so many others rolled boxcars?"

You end up either getting a massive case of survivor's guilt (bad enough) or a major case of megalomania ("The Hand of God is on me, for I am destined to . . . ").

The outer limits of the latter start at "I am the Hand of God" (or worse, "I am the Left Hand of the Devil") and, in one memorable case, went all the way to "Yahweh is my handservant" in the officer's club tent one fine evening.

Second Lieutenant Natalie Brooks led off the response with, "DON'T YOU BLASPHEME IN HERE! DON'T YOU BLASPHEME IN HERE!"

By the time those nice young men in their clean white coats came to take him away, hee-hee, ha-ha, ho-ho, we'd gone through the Blues Brothers, multiple rounds of Monty Python (I contributed "I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition" with predictable results), a heartfelt sing-along of "Dead Puppies," a scholarly discussion about how that Catch-22 was some catch, and generally indulged our pent-up stress and gibbering lunacy.

After which, we proceeded to drink beer. Never mentioned that particular lunatic again for the rest of the evening.

[jemhouston]

Sometimes the only proper response to an insane situation is insanity.

I haven't looked at it for a while, but at one point, there were four or five theories on why some cracked during the war, just after, or only slightly. All theories had some case that fit it, others fitted other theories, and some that were completely outside the box. If I remember right, what worried all the medical community were the oddball cases were people who were just on the edge at war's start seemed to get more stable.

After the war, one self-described prewar nutjob who tested more stable at the end went into the field. About fifteen years, he wrote a book. I think it was called "Insane to sane, how WW3 made me sane." I did search the title, but no hits. This was a guy in combat arms, I think mech infantry, with one Silver Star.

[Johnnie Lyle]

Also have to remember that the airplane is moving at roughly 1,000 feet per second, the WSO is only four or five feet behind the pilot, and literally milliseconds determined what happened next.

It makes you think.

Yeah, but that fucks you up very differently. Plus, by definition, you don’t have to live with it if they kill you.

You do if your people get killed due to decisions you made.

Trust me, thinking on it does fuck you up, and it does so all the worse the longer the war goes on. "Why did I roll the hard six all those times, when so many others rolled boxcars?"

You end up either getting a massive case of survivor's guilt (bad enough) or a major case of megalomania ("The Hand of God is on me, for I am destined to . . . ").

The outer limits of the latter start at "I am the Hand of God" (or worse, "I am the Left Hand of the Devil") and, in one memorable case, went all the way to "Yahweh is my handservant" in the officer's club tent one fine evening.

Second Lieutenant Natalie Brooks led off the response with, "DON'T YOU BLASPHEME IN HERE! DON'T YOU BLASPHEME IN HERE!"

By the time those nice young men in their clean white coats came to take him away, hee-hee, ha-ha, ho-ho, we'd gone through the Blues Brothers, multiple rounds of Monty Python (I contributed "I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition" with predictable results), a heartfelt sing-along of "Dead Puppies," a scholarly discussion about how that Catch-22 was some catch, and generally indulged our pent-up stress and gibbering lunacy.

After which, we proceeded to drink beer. Never mentioned that particular lunatic again for the rest of the evening.

Which is why I said it fucks you up differently.