Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

All Hi-Tech Developments for the Military and Civilian Sectors
Poohbah
Posts: 3077
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:08 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Poohbah »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
kdahm wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:20 am
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 1:01 am
Maybe send them the mass limits for StarLiner and Dragon, with the calculation of how many Boeing executives we could use to test StarLiner’s ability to re-enter if we chopped their arms, legs and genitals off.
Cruel and unusual punishment.

Elon doesn't have a cargo for Starship Flight 5 yet......
It’s only unusual if you don’t do it to all the screwups.

Being serious, these jagoffs, bless their non-existent hearts, have been paid an exorbitant sum of money by the United States government to provide cutting edge aerospace technology. As far as I can tell, the only cutting edge involved might be the tools left in the KC-46s they forced on us or the shrapnel produced by the 737MAXes as they blew their doors or crashed.

As such, they are classic examples of the problem increasingly bedeviling the United States: mediocrities burdened by delusions of adequacy playing a diabolical game of musical chairs, hoping to get rich and cash out before the music stops, they’re in the Big Chair, and they have to produce something that works as advertised.

To date, these people, best described using words my mother wishes I didn’t know in combinations that would make the Senior Chief blush and are probably anatomically impossible, have killed something like a couple hundred people and behaved with a smarmy cynicism worthy of America’s other corporate mass murderer, PG&E. As such, they have exhausted both my patience and willingness to adhere to the spirit of the Constitution if the letter allows me to reach back and assert myself.

Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

And yes, if people worry I am being overly harsh, I ran my remarks through independent analysis and they confirmed I was not.
THIS.

"Do, or do not. There is no try." -- Master Yoda
Johnnie Lyle
Posts: 3424
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

Poohbah wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:19 am
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
kdahm wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:20 am
Cruel and unusual punishment.

Elon doesn't have a cargo for Starship Flight 5 yet......
It’s only unusual if you don’t do it to all the screwups.

Being serious, these jagoffs, bless their non-existent hearts, have been paid an exorbitant sum of money by the United States government to provide cutting edge aerospace technology. As far as I can tell, the only cutting edge involved might be the tools left in the KC-46s they forced on us or the shrapnel produced by the 737MAXes as they blew their doors or crashed.

As such, they are classic examples of the problem increasingly bedeviling the United States: mediocrities burdened by delusions of adequacy playing a diabolical game of musical chairs, hoping to get rich and cash out before the music stops, they’re in the Big Chair, and they have to produce something that works as advertised.

To date, these people, best described using words my mother wishes I didn’t know in combinations that would make the Senior Chief blush and are probably anatomically impossible, have killed something like a couple hundred people and behaved with a smarmy cynicism worthy of America’s other corporate mass murderer, PG&E. As such, they have exhausted both my patience and willingness to adhere to the spirit of the Constitution if the letter allows me to reach back and assert myself.

Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

And yes, if people worry I am being overly harsh, I ran my remarks through independent analysis and they confirmed I was not.
THIS.

"Do, or do not. There is no try." -- Master Yoda
Yoda was wrong. There are times where trying is all that matters.

This ain’t it, though. Oh, Boeing sure is trying. The wrong kind.

This is hubris, complacency, smugness and peacetime mentality; one situation exemplifying a country-wide acceptance of mediocrity and inadequacy by well-connected and highly credentialed incompetents who think they have us over a barrel because they’re the only game in town and too big to fail. And if we don’t get our shit in gear, it’s going to get worse, not better.

So fuck ‘em.
Nightwatch2
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:50 am

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Nightwatch2 »

I think Boeing is pretty much toast now for all the reasons noted above.
brovane
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:28 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by brovane »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

NASA and the US Space Force want a robust contractor community to support it's missions. However that isn't occurring when SpaceX out competes other companies by such a wide margin. It is only going to get worse once SpaceX get's Starship flying regularly. The only chance these other aerospace companies have will be lawfare against SpaceX.
Johnnie Lyle
Posts: 3424
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

brovane wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:23 pm
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

NASA and the US Space Force want a robust contractor community to support it's missions. However that isn't occurring when SpaceX out competes other companies by such a wide margin. It is only going to get worse once SpaceX get's Starship flying regularly. The only chance these other aerospace companies have will be lawfare against SpaceX.
They have another option, which has been used extensively in other industries - reform their business model and internal practices to emulate SpaceX. That can either come internally or be imposed externally by NASA.

However, I very much suspect that they won’t, preferring their US Steel-like march to oblivion. Lawyers are not cheaper than internal reform, but they are a lot more comfortable to people and programs that are progressing with delusions of adequacy and wish to remain doing so.
Poohbah
Posts: 3077
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:08 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Poohbah »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:59 am
Poohbah wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:19 am
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
It’s only unusual if you don’t do it to all the screwups.

Being serious, these jagoffs, bless their non-existent hearts, have been paid an exorbitant sum of money by the United States government to provide cutting edge aerospace technology. As far as I can tell, the only cutting edge involved might be the tools left in the KC-46s they forced on us or the shrapnel produced by the 737MAXes as they blew their doors or crashed.

As such, they are classic examples of the problem increasingly bedeviling the United States: mediocrities burdened by delusions of adequacy playing a diabolical game of musical chairs, hoping to get rich and cash out before the music stops, they’re in the Big Chair, and they have to produce something that works as advertised.

To date, these people, best described using words my mother wishes I didn’t know in combinations that would make the Senior Chief blush and are probably anatomically impossible, have killed something like a couple hundred people and behaved with a smarmy cynicism worthy of America’s other corporate mass murderer, PG&E. As such, they have exhausted both my patience and willingness to adhere to the spirit of the Constitution if the letter allows me to reach back and assert myself.

Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

And yes, if people worry I am being overly harsh, I ran my remarks through independent analysis and they confirmed I was not.
THIS.

"Do, or do not. There is no try." -- Master Yoda
Yoda was wrong. There are times where trying is all that matters.

This ain’t it, though. Oh, Boeing sure is trying. The wrong kind.

This is hubris, complacency, smugness and peacetime mentality; one situation exemplifying a country-wide acceptance of mediocrity and inadequacy by well-connected and highly credentialed incompetents who think they have us over a barrel because they’re the only game in town and too big to fail. And if we don’t get our shit in gear, it’s going to get worse, not better.

So fuck ‘em.
Starliner isn't particularly cutting edge. It should not be that difficult to build a capsule that safely ascends, docks, undocks, re-enters, and lands without killing the crew.

Fer crying out loud, Elon Musk designed Dragon in a cave! With a box of scraps!
MikeKozlowski
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:46 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by MikeKozlowski »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:44 pm
brovane wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:23 pm
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

NASA and the US Space Force want a robust contractor community to support it's missions. However that isn't occurring when SpaceX out competes other companies by such a wide margin. It is only going to get worse once SpaceX get's Starship flying regularly. The only chance these other aerospace companies have will be lawfare against SpaceX.
They have another option, which has been used extensively in other industries - reform their business model and internal practices to emulate SpaceX. That can either come internally or be imposed externally by NASA.

However, I very much suspect that they won’t, preferring their US Steel-like march to oblivion. Lawyers are not cheaper than internal reform, but they are a lot more comfortable to people and programs that are progressing with delusions of adequacy and wish to remain doing so.
Johnny,

The difficulty is that NASA has zero desire or interest in getting contractors to toe the line. If they tried, the respective Congressmen or Senators would pay a call to NASA HQ forthwith to explain exactly how things work. Dad had hours worth of horror stories of contractors, especially the larger ones, who had little if any concern about meeting budgets and schedules - the wheel had to be reinvented every time a new project came around and they knew there was no fear of getting anything well and truly cancelled, because the contracts usually insured that even if cancelled, they'd get almost if not just as much money as if they'd done the job right in the first place.

I hate to say it, but nothing would make me happier - following a safe return of the crew - than to see Boeing and NASA interrogated with carrot peelers. Maybe if Boeing finds itself under Federal supervision, and the NASA bureaucracy loses a few GS-Above-God, then it might sink in.

Mike
brovane
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:28 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by brovane »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:44 pm
brovane wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 6:23 pm
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:35 am
Or, in the vernacular, fuck ‘em. They earned it. I’m beyond done with this being “the best we can do” since SpaceX shows it’s clearly not.

NASA and the US Space Force want a robust contractor community to support it's missions. However that isn't occurring when SpaceX out competes other companies by such a wide margin. It is only going to get worse once SpaceX get's Starship flying regularly. The only chance these other aerospace companies have will be lawfare against SpaceX.
They have another option, which has been used extensively in other industries - reform their business model and internal practices to emulate SpaceX. That can either come internally or be imposed externally by NASA.

However, I very much suspect that they won’t, preferring their US Steel-like march to oblivion. Lawyers are not cheaper than internal reform, but they are a lot more comfortable to people and programs that are progressing with delusions of adequacy and wish to remain doing so.
SpaceX has a huge advantage is that people who are passionate about space want to work at SpaceX because they can get s@#t done instead of endless PowerPoints. SpaceX has a clear mission, making the human race multi-planetary. SpaceX doesn't care about maximizing profit to shareholders. Boeing and Lockheed are in business to make shareholders happy. I bet the engineers at SpaceX who are working on Starship are extremely passionate about their job, this is a once in a life-time chance to work on a rocket that could potentially change how we access space. For these employees this is their generations Apollo moment.
Johnnie Lyle
Posts: 3424
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

And that’s the big problem - everyone in authority but those at SpaceX views this more as a money laundering scheme, not a procurement program to build stuff that performs at least as well as advertised on budget and timeframe.
User avatar
jemhouston
Posts: 5105
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:38 am

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by jemhouston »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:06 pm And that’s the big problem - everyone in authority but those at SpaceX views this more as a money laundering scheme, not a procurement program to build stuff that performs at least as well as advertised on budget and timeframe.
Johnnie, I thought I was the only one that thought that.
Johnnie Lyle
Posts: 3424
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

jemhouston wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:35 pm
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:06 pm And that’s the big problem - everyone in authority but those at SpaceX views this more as a money laundering scheme, not a procurement program to build stuff that performs at least as well as advertised on budget and timeframe.
Johnnie, I thought I was the only one that thought that.
It’s a MAJOR problem with a lot of government expenditure, especially here in California.

We spend fucktons of money on poorly defined and overseen contracts.

Again, there’s a big reason why the DC collar counties are the richest in the US despite not producing anything of value. They’re obscenely rich because they’re purely benefiting from being at the nexus of power and money.
Poohbah
Posts: 3077
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:08 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Poohbah »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:33 pm
jemhouston wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:35 pm
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:06 pm And that’s the big problem - everyone in authority but those at SpaceX views this more as a money laundering scheme, not a procurement program to build stuff that performs at least as well as advertised on budget and timeframe.
Johnnie, I thought I was the only one that thought that.
It’s a MAJOR problem with a lot of government expenditure, especially here in California.

We spend fucktons of money on poorly defined and overseen contracts.

Again, there’s a big reason why the DC collar counties are the richest in the US despite not producing anything of value. They’re obscenely rich because they’re purely benefiting from being at the nexus of power and money.
Way back when, my daughter wanted to read The Hunger Games. As a good parent, I decided to read it first to see if it was appropriate for her.

I made the mistake of reading it while on business travel to DC, just after the Great Recession had imploded a bunch of businesses in SoCal (including my favorite used bookstore).

Well, besides triggering some really bad memories I'd thought I'd left behind after marrying The Fetching Mrs. Poohbah, that book made working in DC even more surreal than it already was.

I realized that Ms. Collins had caught the DC vibe perfectly.

I had some interesting conversations with my daughter a bit later, when she--and I--were ready.
James1978
Posts: 1465
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:38 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by James1978 »

Even assuming that they wanted to, are we sure NASA even has the in-house technical/business competence to impose anything on a contractor?

It's been more than a few years since NASA declared they they were now a customer buying services.

Hell, do they even have the in-house technical/business competence to be be a discerning consumer?
kdahm
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by kdahm »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:06 pm And that’s the big problem - everyone in authority but those at SpaceX views this more as a money laundering scheme, not a procurement program to build stuff that performs at least as well as advertised on budget and timeframe.
Exactly.

Combined with a zero-fault mentality that means hardware must the analyzed and tested for geologic ages to ensure it works right the first time. Instead of doing like Swamp Castle and build it to throw away and see how it fails.

The problem is getting a decent sized space hardware company to throw away a $50 or $100 million at a time in test flights.
Johnnie Lyle
Posts: 3424
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

Poohbah wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:22 am
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:33 pm
jemhouston wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:35 pm

Johnnie, I thought I was the only one that thought that.
It’s a MAJOR problem with a lot of government expenditure, especially here in California.

We spend fucktons of money on poorly defined and overseen contracts.

Again, there’s a big reason why the DC collar counties are the richest in the US despite not producing anything of value. They’re obscenely rich because they’re purely benefiting from being at the nexus of power and money.
Way back when, my daughter wanted to read The Hunger Games. As a good parent, I decided to read it first to see if it was appropriate for her.

I made the mistake of reading it while on business travel to DC, just after the Great Recession had imploded a bunch of businesses in SoCal (including my favorite used bookstore).

Well, besides triggering some really bad memories I'd thought I'd left behind after marrying The Fetching Mrs. Poohbah, that book made working in DC even more surreal than it already was.

I realized that Ms. Collins had caught the DC vibe perfectly.

I had some interesting conversations with my daughter a bit later, when she--and I--were ready.
I was getting Paris and St. Petersburg vibes myself. DC is like the Bourbons and Romanovs on PCP, with a couple tripping Spanish Habsburgs to round out the finance ministries.
kdahm
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by kdahm »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:11 am
Poohbah wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:22 am
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:33 pm
It’s a MAJOR problem with a lot of government expenditure, especially here in California.

We spend fucktons of money on poorly defined and overseen contracts.

Again, there’s a big reason why the DC collar counties are the richest in the US despite not producing anything of value. They’re obscenely rich because they’re purely benefiting from being at the nexus of power and money.
Way back when, my daughter wanted to read The Hunger Games. As a good parent, I decided to read it first to see if it was appropriate for her.

I made the mistake of reading it while on business travel to DC, just after the Great Recession had imploded a bunch of businesses in SoCal (including my favorite used bookstore).

Well, besides triggering some really bad memories I'd thought I'd left behind after marrying The Fetching Mrs. Poohbah, that book made working in DC even more surreal than it already was.

I realized that Ms. Collins had caught the DC vibe perfectly.

I had some interesting conversations with my daughter a bit later, when she--and I--were ready.
I was getting Paris and St. Petersburg vibes myself. DC is like the Bourbons and Romanovs on PCP, with a couple tripping Spanish Habsburgs to round out the finance ministries.
Thinking about it, PAris, St. Petersburg, some of the Austrian Hapsburg court, and many of the Chinese dynasties apply. For that matter, the Heian Period when the capital was at Heian-kyo would also apply.
warshipadmin
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:16 am

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by warshipadmin »

On the procurement side, I used to work for a defence equipment supplier. We'd underbid the original contract at say $40 ph, and then the cluey guys who wore suits would suggest upgrades or enhancements to their customers (Navy or whoever), who would agree, and then press Defence to pay for them, effectively becoming our salesmen. These were at our real charge out rates ($200 per hour for me) and so the contracts were profitable. You should bear in mind that commercial organisations employ many smart people who are employed to figure out how to make money, whereas government doesn't have that laser focus, there's always more money where that came from. The same problem arises with the electricity grid, an apparently fair market system set up by the government is gamed continually by the power companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ity_Market
Poohbah
Posts: 3077
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:08 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by Poohbah »

Johnnie Lyle wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:11 am
Poohbah wrote: Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:22 am
Johnnie Lyle wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:33 pm
It’s a MAJOR problem with a lot of government expenditure, especially here in California.

We spend fucktons of money on poorly defined and overseen contracts.

Again, there’s a big reason why the DC collar counties are the richest in the US despite not producing anything of value. They’re obscenely rich because they’re purely benefiting from being at the nexus of power and money.
Way back when, my daughter wanted to read The Hunger Games. As a good parent, I decided to read it first to see if it was appropriate for her.

I made the mistake of reading it while on business travel to DC, just after the Great Recession had imploded a bunch of businesses in SoCal (including my favorite used bookstore).

Well, besides triggering some really bad memories I'd thought I'd left behind after marrying The Fetching Mrs. Poohbah, that book made working in DC even more surreal than it already was.

I realized that Ms. Collins had caught the DC vibe perfectly.

I had some interesting conversations with my daughter a bit later, when she--and I--were ready.
I was getting Paris and St. Petersburg vibes myself. DC is like the Bourbons and Romanovs on PCP, with a couple tripping Spanish Habsburgs to round out the finance ministries.
There is a theory out there that government runs on 80 year cycles (roughly). In the beginning, it's kind of rough; everyone is still learning how the various new rules and institutions interact, etc. But it works well enough.

In the middle of the cycle, that's when everything is great, and we remember those periods as golden ages.

At the end of the cycle...things go to shit. Rent-seeking and buying or trading favors (vulgar and otherwise) is the primary activity of government, until things implode and a major war concentrates everyone's attention.

The current cycle began in roughly 1945, with the end of the Second World War.

The peak was in 1985, and let me tell you...it was freaking awesome.

2025 marks the end of the current 80-year cycle in the United States, and we are performing as expected.

Good thing I'm too old for a war.
User avatar
jemhouston
Posts: 5105
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:38 am

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by jemhouston »

Poohbah if you're good at paperwork, they find a use for you.
kdahm
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Starliner now in orbit "into August"....

Post by kdahm »

There are few words. Incompetent. Moneygrubbing. Absurd.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/y ... ew-dragon/

Under pressure —
NASA says it is “evaluating all options” for the safe return of Starliner crew
SpaceX is actively working on a plan to fly Starliner's crew home.

Eric Berger - 8/1/2024, 5:59 PM
Boeing's Starliner spacecraft is seen docked at the International Space Station on June 13.
Enlarge / Boeing's Starliner spacecraft is seen docked at the International Space Station on June 13.
NASA
160

It has now been eight weeks since Boeing's Starliner spacecraft launched into orbit on an Atlas V rocket, bound for the International Space Station. At the time NASA officials said the two crew members, Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams, could return to Earth as soon as June 14, just eight days later.

Yes, there had been some problems on Starliner's ride to the space station that involved helium leaks and failing thrusters. But officials said they were relatively minor and sought to downplay them. "Those are pretty small, really, issues to deal with," Mark Nappi, vice president and manager of Boeing's Commercial Crew Program, said during a post-docking news conference. "We’ll figure them out for the next mission. I don’t see these as significant at all."

But days turned to weeks, and weeks turned to months as NASA and Boeing continued to study the two technical problems. Of these issues, the more pressing concern was the failure of multiple reaction control system thrusters that are essential to steering Starliner during its departure from the space station and setting up a critical engine burn to enter Earth's atmosphere.

In the last few weeks, ground teams from NASA and Boeing completed testing of a thruster on a test stand at White Sands, New Mexico. Then, last weekend, Boeing and NASA fired the spacecraft's thrusters in orbit to check their performance while docked at the space station. NASA has said preliminary results from these tests were helpful.
Ars Video
How Scientists Respond to Science Deniers
Dragon becomes a real option

One week ago, the last time NASA officials spoke to the media, the agency's program manager for commercial crew, Steve Stich, would not be drawn into discussing what would happen should NASA conclude that Starliner's thrusters were not reliable enough for the return journey to Earth.

“Our prime option is to complete the mission," Stich said one week ago. "There are a lot of good reasons to complete this mission and bring Butch and Suni home on Starliner. Starliner was designed, as a spacecraft, to have the crew in the cockpit."

For a long time, it seemed almost certain that the astronauts would return to Earth inside Starliner. However, there has been a lot of recent activity at NASA, Boeing, and SpaceX that suggests that Wilmore and Williams could come home aboard a Crew Dragon spacecraft rather than Starliner. Due to the critical importance of this mission, Ars is sharing what we know as of Thursday afternoon.

One informed source said it was greater than a 50-50 chance that the crew would come back on Dragon. Another source said it was significantly more likely than not they would. To be clear, NASA has not made a final decision. This probably will not happen until at least next week. It is likely that Jim Free, NASA's associate administrator, will make the call.

Asked if it was now more likely than not that Starliner's crew would return on Dragon, NASA spokesperson Josh Finch told Ars on Thursday evening, " NASA is evaluating all options for the return of agency astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams from the International Space Station as safely as possible. No decisions have been made and the agency will continue to provide updates on its planning."
Putting together puzzle pieces

What follows are some data points that Ars can confidently report based on multiple sources:

NASA keeps delaying a decision. A Flight Readiness Review meeting had been scheduled for today, August 1, several days in advance. However, it was canceled. Instead, NASA put out a vague blog update on Thursday stating, "Following the completion of Starliner’s return planning, which is expected to continue into next week, more information will be shared about the agency’s return readiness review preparations and subsequent media briefing." So maybe the meeting will take place next week.
NASA issued a $266,678 task award to SpaceX on July 14 for a "special study for emergency response." NASA said this study was not directly related to Starliner's problems, but two sources told Ars it really was. Although the study entailed work on flying more than four crew members home on Crew Dragon—a scenario related to Frank Rubio and the Soyuz MS-22 leaks—it also allowed SpaceX to study flying Dragon home with six passengers, a regular crew complement in addition to Wilmore and Williams.
SpaceX has been actively working on a scenario in which two or four astronauts launch on board Crew 9. (A normal crew is four) This mission has a nominal launch date of August 18, but it could well be delayed. SpaceX has already identified flight suits that would fit Wilmore and Williams, allowing them to fly home on the Crew-8 spacecraft (presently docked to the space station) or the Crew-9 vehicle. It is unclear how crews would be assigned to the two Dragon return flights. It is possible, if four astronauts launch on Crew 9, that five people could fly home on each of the two Dragons.
Two sources told Ars that in meetings this week at NASA field centers, there have been vigorous discussions about whether or not to fly crew home on Starliner. Multiple groups remain "no" on Starliner as of Wednesday. It is unclear how this will be resolved. Some engineers believe that if there are questions about Starliner, then NASA should opt for the safe course—flying on Crew Dragon, which has safely launched 13 times and landed 12 times.

The toughest of calls

NASA officials face a difficult decision. Because there is still at least a small risk to flying Starliner in its present condition, the space agency and Boeing have tested the thrusters as thoroughly as possible while the spacecraft is docked to the space station. This testing was intended to "buy down" these risks. But while the data is good, it has not addressed all of NASA's concerns.

So what will the space agency do? Starliner probably could make it back to Earth safely. But there appears to be some reasonable doubt that Starliner will come back safely. If NASA defers to its fallback plan, flying on Dragon, it may spell the end of the Starliner program. During the development and testing of Starliner, the company has already lost $1.6 billion. Reflying a crew test flight mission, which likely would be necessary should Starliner return autonomously, would cost much more. Boeing might opt to cancel Starliner and leave NASA with just a single provider of crew transportation. That would be painful for both NASA and Boeing.

But the alternative—Starliner not coming home safely with the crew inside—is far, far worse. This is the risk-reward decision that Free, Stich, and other NASA officials ultimately must balance in the coming days.
Post Reply