I'm sorry you're dead
-
- Posts: 845
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:37 am
I'm sorry you're dead
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-y ... e-68818509
The perils of inaccurate information in computer databases exposed in this story.
The perils of inaccurate information in computer databases exposed in this story.
- jemhouston
- Posts: 3837
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:38 am
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
In fairness, bad databases exist with paper. There was MASH episode where the army declared Hawkeye dead. At the end, he had given up trying to fix the mess and got on the bus with the rest of the bodies.
Then the next wave of wounded came in and he got back up to go help them.
Then the next wave of wounded came in and he got back up to go help them.
-
- Posts: 2710
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
Not surprising at all.
At least here in the US, death certificates are very dirty data, full of all kinds of misspellings. Usually it’s addresses or the cause of death train, but can be anywhere. Nor is that address always where you’re actually living when you died, especially if you were in a care home.
Death certificates also don’t have your phone number or email on them, and in the era of cell phones and electronic communications, those are actually more likely to stick with you than address.
Names are also VERY problematic, especially in older or poorly designed systems that don’t encompass the full spectrum of characters used in names and name structures. Which names go on what, are you using a nickname or unconventional spelling (which helps and hurts), which actually are your middle names (true story there), etc.
Finally, at least in the US, we don’t have a master person identifier, though we kind of try to cobble one out of social security numbers.
So not surprising at all that this happened. Kinda surprising it doesn’t happen more often.
At least here in the US, death certificates are very dirty data, full of all kinds of misspellings. Usually it’s addresses or the cause of death train, but can be anywhere. Nor is that address always where you’re actually living when you died, especially if you were in a care home.
Death certificates also don’t have your phone number or email on them, and in the era of cell phones and electronic communications, those are actually more likely to stick with you than address.
Names are also VERY problematic, especially in older or poorly designed systems that don’t encompass the full spectrum of characters used in names and name structures. Which names go on what, are you using a nickname or unconventional spelling (which helps and hurts), which actually are your middle names (true story there), etc.
Finally, at least in the US, we don’t have a master person identifier, though we kind of try to cobble one out of social security numbers.
So not surprising at all that this happened. Kinda surprising it doesn’t happen more often.
-
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:50 am
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
In the US the death certificate databases are automatically linked to the voter registration database and mailed ballots to a post office box….
-
- Posts: 2710
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
In some places, it’s easier to get off the tax rolls than the voter rolls.Nightwatch2 wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:00 am In the US the death certificate databases are automatically linked to the voter registration database and mailed ballots to a post office box….
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
Horror story I heard during my medical coding classes:
A diabetes charity sponsored a 5K race to raise funds, and entrants in the race got a free diabetes screening.
The medical coder proceeded to code them not as "screened for diabetes," but as "diagnosed with diabetes."
Well, the first thing that happened is that the whoopie lights and sirens went off at CDC.
The second thing that happened is that EVERYONE got their insurance rates jacked (assuming the carrier didn't cancel it outright), and it took YEARS to get those false diagnoses expunged, plus years more to get the insurance companies to accept that the diagnoses were false.
A diabetes charity sponsored a 5K race to raise funds, and entrants in the race got a free diabetes screening.
The medical coder proceeded to code them not as "screened for diabetes," but as "diagnosed with diabetes."
Well, the first thing that happened is that the whoopie lights and sirens went off at CDC.
The second thing that happened is that EVERYONE got their insurance rates jacked (assuming the carrier didn't cancel it outright), and it took YEARS to get those false diagnoses expunged, plus years more to get the insurance companies to accept that the diagnoses were false.
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
In Sweden we do have a ”master person identifier”, yet erroneous declarations of death still happens. Due to some media coverage of these I believe that there’s a push to institute some additional safeguards against this, which is a positive development. The most common occurrence seems to be a physician intending to fill out a death certificate for a patient but bungles things and unintentionally enters the data of another (alive) patient. There’s also been a handful of cases when someone wants to maliciously harass a person and have forged a fake death certificate signed by a fictitious physician and then sent it in to be registered. This scenario I believe is being adressed by looking into using some sort of digital identification to verify that it is being sent in by an authorized individual.Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:47 pm Not surprising at all.
At least here in the US, death certificates are very dirty data, full of all kinds of misspellings. Usually it’s addresses or the cause of death train, but can be anywhere. Nor is that address always where you’re actually living when you died, especially if you were in a care home.
Death certificates also don’t have your phone number or email on them, and in the era of cell phones and electronic communications, those are actually more likely to stick with you than address.
Names are also VERY problematic, especially in older or poorly designed systems that don’t encompass the full spectrum of characters used in names and name structures. Which names go on what, are you using a nickname or unconventional spelling (which helps and hurts), which actually are your middle names (true story there), etc.
Finally, at least in the US, we don’t have a master person identifier, though we kind of try to cobble one out of social security numbers.
So not surprising at all that this happened. Kinda surprising it doesn’t happen more often.
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
"BRING OUT YER DEAD!"David Newton wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 1:30 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-y ... e-68818509
The perils of inaccurate information in computer databases exposed in this story.
"I'm not dead yet."
-
- Posts: 2710
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
An MPI cuts down on the confusion and reduces good faith mistakes, though.Micael wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 11:04 amIn Sweden we do have a ”master person identifier”, yet erroneous declarations of death still happens. Due to some media coverage of these I believe that there’s a push to institute some additional safeguards against this, which is a positive development. The most common occurrence seems to be a physician intending to fill out a death certificate for a patient but bungles things and unintentionally enters the data of another (alive) patient. There’s also been a handful of cases when someone wants to maliciously harass a person and have forged a fake death certificate signed by a fictitious physician and then sent it in to be registered. This scenario I believe is being adressed by looking into using some sort of digital identification to verify that it is being sent in by an authorized individual.Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 2:47 pm Not surprising at all.
At least here in the US, death certificates are very dirty data, full of all kinds of misspellings. Usually it’s addresses or the cause of death train, but can be anywhere. Nor is that address always where you’re actually living when you died, especially if you were in a care home.
Death certificates also don’t have your phone number or email on them, and in the era of cell phones and electronic communications, those are actually more likely to stick with you than address.
Names are also VERY problematic, especially in older or poorly designed systems that don’t encompass the full spectrum of characters used in names and name structures. Which names go on what, are you using a nickname or unconventional spelling (which helps and hurts), which actually are your middle names (true story there), etc.
Finally, at least in the US, we don’t have a master person identifier, though we kind of try to cobble one out of social security numbers.
So not surprising at all that this happened. Kinda surprising it doesn’t happen more often.
It’s vastly better than the current US system(s), where you have to do a lot more work to make sure that you have the right person when linking records.
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
This raises an interesting question: had a death certificate been issued? If so, that is a legal document and cannot be altered. In the case of an incorrect cause of death, the body must be exhumed and a further autopsy be carried out, then a new death certificate issued.
So would she have to die, then be autopsied, so her death certificate can be re-issued? I mean, seriously, how can she have been declared dead without anyone seeing a body or there being a court case to ascertain the facts? Where was the validation on this 'death data'? Where was the proof?
What am I missing?
So would she have to die, then be autopsied, so her death certificate can be re-issued? I mean, seriously, how can she have been declared dead without anyone seeing a body or there being a court case to ascertain the facts? Where was the validation on this 'death data'? Where was the proof?
What am I missing?
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
She's only mostly dead. Just take her to Max the Miracle Worker.Andy L wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 3:31 pm This raises an interesting question: had a death certificate been issued? If so, that is a legal document and cannot be altered. In the case of an incorrect cause of death, the body must be exhumed and a further autopsy be carried out, then a new death certificate issued.
So would she have to die, then be autopsied, so her death certificate can be re-issued? I mean, seriously, how can she have been declared dead without anyone seeing a body or there being a court case to ascertain the facts? Where was the validation on this 'death data'? Where was the proof?
What am I missing?
-
- Posts: 2710
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
At least in the US, death certificates are relatively easy to amend. We have a form, you put the changes you want on it, have the signing physician sign it, and the changes are made and the amendment form attached.Andy L wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 3:31 pm This raises an interesting question: had a death certificate been issued? If so, that is a legal document and cannot be altered. In the case of an incorrect cause of death, the body must be exhumed and a further autopsy be carried out, then a new death certificate issued.
So would she have to die, then be autopsied, so her death certificate can be re-issued? I mean, seriously, how can she have been declared dead without anyone seeing a body or there being a court case to ascertain the facts? Where was the validation on this 'death data'? Where was the proof?
What am I missing?
So, at least here in the US, you don’t need an autopsy (most DCs don’t have them anyway) or other such stuff. Just someone catching it and triggering the amendment process.
I suspect the UK is similar.
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
Most likely cause is that someone else died and due to finger trouble it was registered under her name. From reading the story it looks like this would have been on the NHS system only - registering a death (for death certificate, etc.) can only be done by a relative which strongly implies that it wouldn't have appeared on this database.Andy L wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 3:31 pmThis raises an interesting question: had a death certificate been issued? If so, that is a legal document and cannot be altered. In the case of an incorrect cause of death, the body must be exhumed and a further autopsy be carried out, then a new death certificate issued.
So would she have to die, then be autopsied, so her death certificate can be re-issued? I mean, seriously, how can she have been declared dead without anyone seeing a body or there being a court case to ascertain the facts? Where was the validation on this 'death data'? Where was the proof?
What am I missing?
War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau. - Jean Dutourd
-
- Posts: 2710
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:27 pm
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
How does that work for people who don’t have relatives, or where one can’t be found?Pdf27 wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 6:25 amMost likely cause is that someone else died and due to finger trouble it was registered under her name. From reading the story it looks like this would have been on the NHS system only - registering a death (for death certificate, etc.) can only be done by a relative which strongly implies that it wouldn't have appeared on this database.Andy L wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 3:31 pmThis raises an interesting question: had a death certificate been issued? If so, that is a legal document and cannot be altered. In the case of an incorrect cause of death, the body must be exhumed and a further autopsy be carried out, then a new death certificate issued.
So would she have to die, then be autopsied, so her death certificate can be re-issued? I mean, seriously, how can she have been declared dead without anyone seeing a body or there being a court case to ascertain the facts? Where was the validation on this 'death data'? Where was the proof?
What am I missing?
Re: I'm sorry you're dead
Responsibility devolves onto the local council.Johnnie Lyle wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 9:36 amHow does that work for people who don’t have relatives, or where one can’t be found?
https://www.buckinghamshire.gov.uk/envi ... angements/
War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau. - Jean Dutourd