...On this date...

The theory and practice of the Profession of Arms through the ages.
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MikeKozlowski
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...On this date...

Post by MikeKozlowski »

...In 1951, HMS Unicorn became the only aircraft carrier to ever conduct a shore bombardment, using her 4" DP guns to hit North Korean coastwatchers.

Commentary seen on TwiX:
"What would Nelson say, Fanshaw?"
"Er, engage the enemy more closely, sir?"
"Exactly. Close the range."
"Erm, we *are* an aircraft carrier equipped to strike targets hundreds of miles away, sir."
"Oh-ho! Think we're smarter than Nelson, do we?"
"No sir, but-"
"Take her in."
God bless the Royal Navy.

Mike
Craiglxviii
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Craiglxviii »

MikeKozlowski wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:16 pm ...In 1951, HMS Unicorn became the only aircraft carrier to ever conduct a shore bombardment, using her 4" DP guns to hit North Korean coastwatchers.

Commentary seen on TwiX:
"What would Nelson say, Fanshaw?"
"Er, engage the enemy more closely, sir?"
"Exactly. Close the range."
"Erm, we *are* an aircraft carrier equipped to strike targets hundreds of miles away, sir."
"Oh-ho! Think we're smarter than Nelson, do we?"
"No sir, but-"
"Take her in."
God bless the Royal Navy.

Mike
At the Battle of Cape Matapan, HMS Formidable had to be ordered to leave the line of battle as her captain was fully intending to do the same.
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jemhouston
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by jemhouston »

Craiglxviii wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:18 pm
MikeKozlowski wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:16 pm ...In 1951, HMS Unicorn became the only aircraft carrier to ever conduct a shore bombardment, using her 4" DP guns to hit North Korean coastwatchers.

Commentary seen on TwiX:
"What would Nelson say, Fanshaw?"
"Er, engage the enemy more closely, sir?"
"Exactly. Close the range."
"Erm, we *are* an aircraft carrier equipped to strike targets hundreds of miles away, sir."
"Oh-ho! Think we're smarter than Nelson, do we?"
"No sir, but-"
"Take her in."
God bless the Royal Navy.

Mike
At the Battle of Cape Matapan, HMS Formidable had to be ordered to leave the line of battle as her captain was fully intending to do the same.

Did HMS Formidable forget what happened when HMS Glorius got into a gun fight?
Belushi TD
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Belushi TD »

Its probably a good thing that the Lexington and Saratoga were not in the Royal Navy then.


Cruiser speed, 2/3rds cruiser armament. I can EASILY see a RN captain following the cruisers into a gun battle.

Belushi TD
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Pdf27
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Pdf27 »

jemhouston wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:15 pmDid HMS Formidable forget what happened when HMS Glorius got into a gun fight?
It takes the Navy three years to build a ship. It will take three hundred years to build a new tradition.
Note also in practical terms that the engagement was at knife-fighting range in the dark: staying close to your escort isn't a completey unreasonable decision in the circumstances.
War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau. - Jean Dutourd
David Newton
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by David Newton »

HMS Glorious didn't have three friendly battleships with it. Had that been the case the outcome would have been rather different!
pandion
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by pandion »

For the record:

* the sinking of HMS Glorious and her two escorting destroyers took place in full daylight
* the destroyers may be said to have gone into occasional knife-fighting range with their 4.7 in guns and torpedoes, but Glorious did whatever she could to escape. Which wasn't much as she only had boilers lit enough to do 18 knots
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jemhouston
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by jemhouston »

Belushi TD wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:22 am Its probably a good thing that the Lexington and Saratoga were not in the Royal Navy then.


Cruiser speed, 2/3rds cruiser armament. I can EASILY see a RN captain following the cruisers into a gun battle.

Belushi TD
That's one reason the 8" guns were removed. Somewhere there is fiction piece of carriers (I think Saratoga was involved) during the Aleutian campaign during fog of a gun battle with the carriers shooting at each other.
Rocket J Squrriel
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Rocket J Squrriel »

jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:32 am
Belushi TD wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:22 am Its probably a good thing that the Lexington and Saratoga were not in the Royal Navy then.


Cruiser speed, 2/3rds cruiser armament. I can EASILY see a RN captain following the cruisers into a gun battle.

Belushi TD
That's one reason the 8" guns were removed. Somewhere there is fiction piece of carriers (I think Saratoga was involved) during the Aleutian campaign during fog of a gun battle with the carriers shooting at each other.
I think I remember that one. They were fighting the Akagi IIRC.
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jemhouston
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by jemhouston »

Rocket J Squrriel wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:01 pm
jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:32 am
Belushi TD wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:22 am Its probably a good thing that the Lexington and Saratoga were not in the Royal Navy then.


Cruiser speed, 2/3rds cruiser armament. I can EASILY see a RN captain following the cruisers into a gun battle.

Belushi TD
That's one reason the 8" guns were removed. Somewhere there is fiction piece of carriers (I think Saratoga was involved) during the Aleutian campaign during fog of a gun battle with the carriers shooting at each other.
I think I remember that one. They were fighting the Akagi IIRC.
Do you have a link?
Johnnie Lyle
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:32 am
Belushi TD wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:22 am Its probably a good thing that the Lexington and Saratoga were not in the Royal Navy then.


Cruiser speed, 2/3rds cruiser armament. I can EASILY see a RN captain following the cruisers into a gun battle.

Belushi TD
That's one reason the 8" guns were removed. Somewhere there is fiction piece of carriers (I think Saratoga was involved) during the Aleutian campaign during fog of a gun battle with the carriers shooting at each other.
The 8” were removed as space and weight compensation for expanding the 5” battery from 12 5”/25 to 16 5”/38 on SARATOGA after she was torpedoed.

They were replaced by 7 quad 1.1” guns in LEXINGTON right before she sailed south to Coral Sea.

During the fleet problems of the 1930s, the 8” were in simulated action, because the CVs did encounter enemy cruiser screens.
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jemhouston
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by jemhouston »

I thought during the Fleet Exercises they decided carriers getting into gunfights were a bad idea.
Rocket J Squrriel
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Rocket J Squrriel »

jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:30 pm
Rocket J Squrriel wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:01 pm
jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 11:32 am

That's one reason the 8" guns were removed. Somewhere there is fiction piece of carriers (I think Saratoga was involved) during the Aleutian campaign during fog of a gun battle with the carriers shooting at each other.
I think I remember that one. They were fighting the Akagi IIRC.
Do you have a link?
Afraid not. It might have been one of Theodore's stories from the original board. I lost the file several hard drive crashes ago.
kdahm
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by kdahm »

Rocket J Squrriel wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:09 am
jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:30 pm
Rocket J Squrriel wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:01 pm

I think I remember that one. They were fighting the Akagi IIRC.
Do you have a link?
Afraid not. It might have been one of Theodore's stories from the original board. I lost the file several hard drive crashes ago.
Yes, I believe it was Theodore's Wake Relieved series, on a long expired NavWeaps fiction board.
James1978
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by James1978 »

kdahm wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:40 am
Rocket J Squrriel wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:09 am
jemhouston wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 9:30 pm

Do you have a link?
Afraid not. It might have been one of Theodore's stories from the original board. I lost the file several hard drive crashes ago.
Yes, I believe it was Theodore's Wake Relieved series, on a long expired NavWeaps fiction board.
Could it have been in his Panay War story?
Johnnie Lyle
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Johnnie Lyle »

jemhouston wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:00 am I thought during the Fleet Exercises they decided carriers getting into gunfights were a bad idea.
It is, but sometimes you have to shoot your way out of one, especially at night or in bad weather. That was a not inconsiderable possibility in much of the 1930s.

By 1941, though, that was increasingly less likely due to improved aircraft performance and especially more modern escorts.

The 8” were also a lot heavier than the attendant 5”, and IIRC some admirals thought they made her roll. So off they came once the war started and, especially for SARATOGA, she was available for much needed modernization courtesy of a Japanese torpedo.

Both sets ended up as coast defense artillery on Hawaii IIRC.
1Big Rich
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by 1Big Rich »

jemhouston wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:00 am I thought during the Fleet Exercises they decided carriers getting into gunfights were a bad idea.
Quite right.

Fleet Problem IX saw both Lexington and Saratoga sunk by 'enemy' battleships. Blue Fleet's Lexington was steaming upwind to launch planes when she blundered in the Black Fleet's BatDiv5, which was steaming downwind. The 'engagement' was at short range, and Lexington would have undoubtedly been sunk, but it was so early in the wargame the umpires ruled her 'damaged' so she could continue to take part.

Later, Saratoga of the Black Fleet encountered Blue's BatDIv2 instead of her own BatDiv5, and 'sunk' under heavy fire at short range. She was also 'sunk' again by four torpedoes from a submarine shortly thereafter. Prior to the encounter with the battleships, she destroyed one of her own planes, a T3M with her 8in guns firing on an 'enemy' destroyer. It was spotted in the hangar 68 feet from the gun muzzle and suffered 36 cracked ribs and ripped fabric.

Fleet Problem XIV saw poor weather shut down Lexington's flight operations. The next morning, as her planes were warming up, sunrise revealed an 'enemy' battleship at short range. As she turned to escape, a second battleship appeared, and she was 'out of action.'

More on the carriers in the Fleet Problems here:

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/h ... riers.html

Regards,
The BC Board
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts. - Albert Einstein
Rocket J Squrriel
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Re: ...On this date...

Post by Rocket J Squrriel »

James1978 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:59 am
kdahm wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:40 am
Rocket J Squrriel wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:09 am

Afraid not. It might have been one of Theodore's stories from the original board. I lost the file several hard drive crashes ago.
Yes, I believe it was Theodore's Wake Relieved series, on a long expired NavWeaps fiction board.
Could it have been in his Panay War story?
I'm certain it wasn't that because I have a copy of Panay War. This was a short, few paragraphs story. It might have been a Theodore but I'm not sure. Sorry I can more help!
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M.Becker
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Post by M.Becker »

Belushi TD wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:22 am Its probably a good thing that the Lexington and Saratoga were not in the Royal Navy then.


Cruiser speed, 2/3rds cruiser armament. I can EASILY see a RN captain following the cruisers into a gun battle.

Belushi TD
More like full armament of the British heavy cruiser.

I always thought Lex took her 8" down with her but now that you mention it, I seem to recall they ended up as shore batteries on Oahu.
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